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Thread ID: 62671	2005-10-15 06:32:00	Firewall Advice	Annanz (3044)	Press F1

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
396512	2005-10-19 06:08:00	SP2 firewall dosn't stop dos attacks, what planet are you on ! ! ! ROFLMAO the sp2 update brought in connection limiting which slows it down a bit but thats all . it certainly dosn't give the user any indication that they are being used for attacking someone . what good is a firewall that dosn't help you control what your pc does on the net? all of you seem to be assuming that an AV actually works all of the time . news flash ! they don't always work ! for eg this everning i did a quick cleanup of cuzzies pc . AV caught a few things but the firewall told me there was more . i got rid of 5 others and that was only a very quick look at it . also AV's do not pickup or stop legit progams from sucking away your rather exspencive broadband or hogging your dailup . for eg the keyboard driver that kept checking for updates every few seconds . its legit, not malicous in any way but it is well know to cost you a fair bit in wasted data useage . a good firewall is a very handy tool which can save your butt . . . . . . well more like your bank acc, MS firewall isn't going to stop that trojen from sending out your banking passwords and Av's don't always pick it up either . a good firewall will give the user an opportunity to save themselves . however what the user does with that opportunity is up to them . I find your views on the SP2 firewall outdated and inaccurate at best, not to mention paranoid . SP2 firewall and a Good AV and updates is all the "average" home user needs . MS updates SP2 firewall, will stop Dos attacks with the removal of raw sockets . Your opinion is out dated . I agree new vanurabilities may be found so I will give you that, but recent examples have show MS is fast to shut these threats down with updates . You CLEARLY don't deal with end users . Many users struggle to deal with 3rd party firewalls not knowing how to answer security access prompts, and as for setting up port forwards . . . . Is MS SP2 firewall good?, NO its adequate for a certain level of user, and you clearly are having problems comprehending the difference . Your veiws on a trojan not being recognicsed by your antivirus and therefore may squeeze through is laughable, you are "technically corrrect", however you may also be struck by lighting or a metiorite	Battleneter (60)
396513	2005-10-19 06:46:00	And they say ignorance is bliss :p	Myth (110)
396514	2005-10-19 08:58:00	I find your views on the SP2 firewall outdated and inaccurate at best, not to mention paranoid . SP2 firewall and a Good AV and updates is all the "average" home user needs . It depends on who your "average" home user is . A family with a couple of teenagers would definitely need a third-party firewall whereas a retired couple with entirely different browsing habits *may* get away with just the SP2 firewall and a good AV . Having said that, however, I had a rather tricky trojan to deal with last week on the computer of a retired couple . AVG did detect this particular one but could not do anything other than alert them of its presence . Thanks to Outpost the trojan's attempts to "phone home" was blocked so it did no further damage . This trojan must have got itself onto the computer via email as I could find no evidence of dodgy sites in the browser's history (and the owners would not have known how to delete the evidence) so that couple certainly learnt of the benefits of a third party firewall . You CLEARLY don't deal with end users . Many users struggle to deal with 3rd party firewalls not knowing how to answer security access prompts, and as for setting up port forwards . . . . I agree that many users find firewalls difficult to operate to begin with but once permissions are set for the browser, email client and whatever other legitimate programs need access they don't normally need to think about the firewall again until the alarm bells start ringing . I also admit that some users are utterly hopeless with understanding and using a firewall and for those users I just set up the Windows firewall and hope for the best . Your veiws on a trojan not being recognicsed by your antivirus and therefore may squeeze through is laughable, you are "technically corrrect", however you may also be struck by lighting or a metioriteI disagree with that . Several trojans have managed to escape detection by my previous anti-virus program (AVG) at different times and the only indication I got of their presence was from my firewall's alerts . A trojan cleaner got rid of them but I hate to think what mischief they would have got up to if I had been using just the Windows firewall .	FoxyMX (5)
396515	2005-10-19 09:10:00	I have the XP firewall killed off, all my ports open on my router, and my C drive shared, On a wireless network......Muhahahahaha. Anyhow, I see multiple comps running malicious code that is ignored by AV's, pulled a keylogger off one today. Nortons (god bless it) was oblivious, whacked on ZA (shock horrer) and what do ya know, dodgy looking pos was trying to access the net. Final stunning move was to install AVG which detected and removed it as soon as it finished installing.....	Metla (12)
396516	2005-10-19 09:18:00	Did you remember to pirouette afterwards :p Yes rather funny what Nortons misses and AVG finds	Myth (110)
396517	2005-10-19 09:30:00	SurferJoe46- I heard that one can use another puter as a firewall too . It seems to me it said that you can use one between the DSL router and the puter you are going to use online as alreay mentioned you can use another pc as a firewall, funny enough running a software firewall on nother pc is terma hardware firewall . . . go figure :confused: for a home pc its overkill, if a person struggles with a software firewall how the hell are they going to manage setting up, running and maintaining another pc that most likly is running a completely different OS . for some reason some IT pro's insist that hardware firewalls are the ONLY good firewall and is what all home users should have . There's no reason why a Linux based firewall can't stop outgoing traffic . It's just a matter of making the appropriate rules . how do you make a rule to stop sehuerfmb . exe that uses IE and the same ports etc and when the offending program is on another pc on the network? MS updates SP2 firewall, will stop Dos attacks with the removal of raw sockets you don't NEED raw sockets to DOS attack You CLEARLY don't deal with end users . Many users struggle to deal with 3rd party firewalls not knowing how to answer security access prompts i take the time and trouble to TEACH them how to use it, something a lot of techs are slack on . your attitude is like these dumb isp's that make youy remove all tools (which can be used to fix the problem) on your pc before they will do anything . they will much rather have people infected then spend a few more minutes actually solving the problem . the only people that seam to be against personal firewalls is help desks and IT pro's . Is MS SP2 firewall good?, NO its adequate for a certain level of user, and you clearly are having problems comprehending the difference . the lower level the user is (as you put it) the more important it is for them to ave such tools . your not doing them any favours by dumbing down there sicurity . Your veiws on a trojan not being recognicsed by your antivirus and therefore may squeeze through is laughable, you are "technically corrrect", however you may also be struck by lighting or a metiorite is it raining metiorites over there or something ?? infected pc's is the most comman problem with pc's . 95% of pc's i fix are infected with something and its comman as mud for AV's to miss it . simply put MS firewall is not suited to any home user . its a mere minimal bandaid . also don't forget its only XP users that have it, people with other OS's use something better . edit: just to add . . . . . this is all nothing new . years ago pro's where saying "no need for AV", then it was "no need for firewall", then "no need for personall firewall, hardware firewall is ok", now its "MS firewall is good enough" . its the same old *** . they all eventually learn the cost of poor sicurity .	tweak'e (69)
396518	2005-10-20 06:43:00	as alreay mentioned you can use another pc as a firewall, funny enough running a software firewall on nother pc is terma hardware firewall . . . go figure :confused: for a home pc its overkill, if a person struggles with a software firewall how the hell are they going to manage setting up, running and maintaining another pc that most likly is running a completely different OS . for some reason some IT pro's insist that hardware firewalls are the ONLY good firewall and is what all home users should have . how do you make a rule to stop sehuerfmb . exe that uses IE and the same ports etc and when the offending program is on another pc on the network? you don't NEED raw sockets to DOS attack i take the time and trouble to TEACH them how to use it, something a lot of techs are slack on . your attitude is like these dumb isp's that make youy remove all tools (which can be used to fix the problem) on your pc before they will do anything . they will much rather have people infected then spend a few more minutes actually solving the problem . the only people that seam to be against personal firewalls is help desks and IT pro's . the lower level the user is (as you put it) the more important it is for them to ave such tools . your not doing them any favours by dumbing down there sicurity . is it raining metiorites over there or something ?? infected pc's is the most comman problem with pc's . 95% of pc's i fix are infected with something and its comman as mud for AV's to miss it . simply put MS firewall is not suited to any home user . its a mere minimal bandaid . also don't forget its only XP users that have it, people with other OS's use something better . edit: just to add . . . . . this is all nothing new . years ago pro's where saying "no need for AV", then it was "no need for firewall", then "no need for personall firewall, hardware firewall is ok", now its "MS firewall is good enough" . its the same old *** . they all eventually learn the cost of poor sicurity . lol Read what I said properly, SP2 firewall no longer allows Raw sockets, your Dos attack argument is dead, I suggest you catch up your knowledge of the SP2 firewall before you comment on it . If you deal with 3 end users a week then I am sure you have the hours to spend teaching end users how to use 3rd party firewall, and then take the 30 calls afterward asking about access prompts and questions about the 300 serious attacks they see in there security logs that is probably just legit traffic, oh and why does my firewall interfare with my apps, ie P2P, OH and how do I set up a port forward . There is such a thing as wasteing end users time as well, even if you have the best intentions . Sometimes the most simple works best .	Battleneter (60)
396519	2005-10-20 07:01:00	lol Read what I said properly, SP2 firewall no longer allows Raw sockets, your Dos attack argument is dead, I suggest you catch up your knowledge of the SP2 firewall before you comment on it. do your homework/schoolwork <sigh> while the sp2 does stop raw sockets you DON'T NEED to use raw sockets to mount a dos attack. they have been and will continue to do dos attacks without ever useing raw sockets. raw sockets just makes it easier to mount more advanced types of dos attacks. blocking raw sockets certainly helps but it dosn't mean your pc can't be used in a dos attack. once the pc has been infected and the trojen allowed access to the net (sp2 won't stop it) then it can be used for almost anything.	tweak'e (69)
396520	2005-10-20 07:15:00	lol I see your annoyed, good to see you have reverted to abuse. I generally agree with your raw socket comments you are "technically" correct, although you have seemed to have changed direction a bit lol. The way I see it there are 3 types of network secuirty people. #1. The Paranoid type where EVERYONE needs a third party firewall and is constantly under attack from all the evil Terrorist hackers. #2. The sensible poeple that evaulate individual security needs based on the users needs, balancing inconvience with benefit. #3. The Don't care a less, don't need any firewall, AV or updates, whats a hacker? I see you as a #1 and myself as a #2. We will probably never see eye to eye on this subject and frankly it is of no concern to me.	Battleneter (60)
396521	2005-10-20 08:42:00	Well we #1'ers have been battle hardened and seen the damage these things do to friends and family PCs as well as viruses/worms flooding the workplace. Telling people their work is corrupted and cannot be recovered is hard. Therefore we will do all we can stop it happening to others.	KiwiTT_NZ (233)
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