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| Thread ID: 70465 | 2006-07-04 10:25:00 | What do you guys think of this printer? | Renmoo (66) | Press F1 |
| Post ID | Timestamp | Content | User | ||
| 468556 | 2006-07-08 03:48:00 | grey can be achieved by only using black, and that is to use a screen of black . Mono laser printers do it this way and my old mono inkjet did this way . but you are right with multicolour printers . should have read rest of thread Got a couple of old Canons here (BJC-1000, and BJC-240) that are one-cartridge types . You can use either (1) one 3-color cart, or one (1) black cart but not both at the same time . . they have no provision to use the black with the 3-color cart . One can print black or shades of grey with either type . . although the black whilst using the color cart is muddy . So far, I have refilled the black carts about 30 times each with no appreciable deterioration of pattern or control . Maybe I'll try mixing my own ink later on too . I also have a friend and his wife in the professional photography business doing weddings and such . . . . . and they use Epsons with multiple bottles of ink feeding with long tubes to the heads . I swear that they must have 10 different colors plus black feeding some of their machines! Another friend uses an Epson AIO that prints many times better than I ever though it would . I has individual carts for seperate colors (YCM) + Black . The nice thing is that that Epson can shut off the colors while it runs in black mode only . That saves a lot of ink . Greyscale is primarily a black cart with modulation process, as you can pull the color carts and still print greyscale . . . . makes me wonder what all the problem is . Seems the use-or-doesn't-use the colors to make grey or black depends on the manufacturer . |
SurferJoe46 (51) | ||
| 468557 | 2006-07-08 04:18:00 | Well its too late now but I have a Brother DCP 115c and its awsome, its really good. Indivual ink tanks for the colours.Quick printing speed, and a good scanner. Its about $100 now. I did see at the Warehouse Stationary yesterday that they have black and white laser printers for $100, its a Xerox too. |
Prescott (11) | ||
| 468558 | 2006-07-08 05:20:00 | Well BT if I was to explain in my own words I would cock it up, so have a read of this ( . about . com/od/scanninggraphics/ss/color_to_bw_6 . htm" target="_blank">desktoppub . about . com) . Simply saying that grey is a percentage of black is wrong, the same as saying cyan or magenta alone can reproduce all shades of blue or red purely by altering the percentage of dot . Well plod, that link says exactly what I have been trying to get through all along . Grey is just less black ink on the paper, I didn't think it necessary to go into the theory any deeper, but to be fair the linked page explains it well enough . However, the situation is quite different for printing colour . If you want to vary the saturation of a specific colour you use less ink on the paper (by means already covered for greyscale) but if you want to change the shade or tint of that colour you have to mix elements of other colours in with it . That is subtractive colour mixing, because each colour added absorbs all wavelengths of light except those of the colour by which it is commonly known, i . e . red reflects the wavelength we perceive as "red" to our eyes and absorbs all other wavelengths . To mix light you use additive mixing, which is why CRT and LCD screens output light in the three primary colours only: red, blue and green (RGB) . Black is the absence of light output . Incidentally, the blackest any screen type can get is the colour you see when it is turned off, usually a medium grey-green . Black is a subjective impression produced by the contrast between illuminated pixels and those that are switched off . It is mildy amusing to see screen reviewers speaking of "crisp deep blacks" when the only issue is contrast . Think about how movies are shown on a white screen and you will get the picture, that's why movie theatres have to be dark . The primary colours for subtractive printing are cyan, magenta and yellow, which are the complementary colours of red, green and blue; and black is produced (poorly) by mixing CMY or (better) by using a K (black) cartridge, hence inkjets using CMYK systems . I stand 100% behind my original statement that inkjet printers do not need to use colour to print greyscale, and I will go further and say that if they do inject colour into the mix, they will be unable to produce a true monochrome greyscale rendition because no mixing of CMY will ever produce a genuine black, or a true monochrome grey . Cheers Billy 8-{) |
Billy T (70) | ||
| 468559 | 2006-07-08 05:35:00 | There are some that would argue that........... Greyscale does not use black usually as black is either on or off, so no "grey". Greyscale is achieved by using mixed colours only. So I see no mystery. Dear me............. |
Cicero (40) | ||
| 468560 | 2006-07-08 07:14:00 | There are some that would argue that...........Greyscale does not use black usually as black is either on or off, so no "grey". Greyscale is achieved by using mixed colours only. So I see no mystery. Dear me............. Sorry Ciccy, you couldn't be more wrong. To understand how greyscale works, you have to differentiate between printing (subtractive mixing of light using colour pigments) and projection (additive mixing of light using RGB emitters). Greyscale is black diluted by varying levels of white (which is all colours of the rainbow combined). Note that black does not appear in the rainbow :D How that dilution is achieved varies according to the means of producing and viewing the image. Greyscale can't be produced by any variation of colours, but before you pick me up on the point, white light is a mix of all the colours in proportion, so technically, and in printing terms, when you view shades of grey, coloured light is being reflected in true rainbow proportions to provide the white light needed to subjectively dilute black to grey. However, in printing you will not (cannot) produce a true monochrome outcome by mixing coloured pigments. You are fighting the laws of nature here, not the wiles of printer or ink manufacturers. Cheers Billy 8-{) :nerd: Edit: Point noted Ciccy: "Some would argue" |
Billy T (70) | ||
| 468561 | 2006-07-08 07:22:00 | Sorry Ciccy, you couldn't be more wrong. To understand how grey scale works, you have to differentiate between printing (subtractive mixing of light using colour pigments) and projection (additive mixing of light using RGB emitters). Grey scale is black diluted by varying levels of white (which is all colours of the rainbow combined). Note that black does not appear in the rainbow :D How that dilution is achieved varies according to the means of producing and viewing the image. Grey scale can't be produced by any variation of colours, but before you pick me up on the point, white light is a mix of all the colours in proportion, so technically, and in printing terms, when you view shades of grey, coloured light is being reflected in true rainbow proportions to provide the white light needed to subjectively dilute black to grey. However, in printing you will not (cannot) produce a true monochrome outcome by mixing coloured pigments. You are fighting the laws of nature here, not the wiles of printer or ink manufacturers. Cheers Billy 8-{) :nerd: B,you did't note,I said some of us think that,I won't mention who. I assumed through brilliant reasoning,that all you have said is the case,well done old boy. ;) |
Cicero (40) | ||
| 468562 | 2006-07-08 08:02:00 | Perhaps it is best summed up here, Cicero: www.inksaver.com "When users print in grayscale on most inkjets, their printer uses color ink as well. The same goes when printing black text on some inkjets — color is added, to make the black look deeper. Sometimes, printing a draft in black and white or grayscale doesn't save as much ink as you think." I don't really care why it does it, but it does. Being fairly colour-blind a lot of colours look grey-like to me anyway... I use a mono laser (HP LaserJet 2100) for 90% of what I do. I use a colour inkjet for reports and presentations, as the "density" of the black is superior, for reasons in the link above (and also because my reports usually have colour images embedded). Certainly the laser is cheaper per page (a $89 toner yields about 6,000-8,000 pages for me, and includes a new drum) but I dont worry about the inkjet costs. The output cost of a typical report can often be several hundred $ per page in research, data and consultancy costs, so an extra few cents for printing is not really an issue as I see it. If it was just for "general home use" I would just have a low-end laser for non-colour use, but I would ensure it's one where the toner includes a new drum. That's not a Brother... Also I prefer to use 100 gsm clay based paper for the inkjets, which is not cheap, particularly if it's the A3 large format inkjet. |
godfather (25) | ||
| 468563 | 2006-07-08 10:21:00 | Well its too late now but I have a Brother DCP 115c and its awsome, its really good. Indivual ink tanks for the colours.Quick printing speed, and a good scanner. Its about $100 now. I did see at the Warehouse Stationary yesterday that they have black and white laser printers for $100, its a Xerox too. I've got a 110C & it is crap. Good to see they have improved newer models |
Greven (91) | ||
| 468564 | 2006-07-08 10:53:00 | Perhaps it is best summed up here, Cicero: www.inksaver.com "When users print in grayscale on most inkjets, their printer uses color ink as well. The same goes when printing black text on some inkjets — color is added, to make the black look deeper. Sometimes, printing a draft in black and white or grayscale doesn't save as much ink as you think." I don't really care why it does it, but it does. Being fairly colour-blind a lot of colours look grey-like to me anyway... I use a mono laser (HP LaserJet 2100) for 90% of what I do. I use a colour inkjet for reports and presentations, as the "density" of the black is superior, for reasons in the link above (and also because my reports usually have colour images embedded). Certainly the laser is cheaper per page (a $89 toner yields about 6,000-8,000 pages for me, and includes a new drum) but I dont worry about the inkjet costs. The output cost of a typical report can often be several hundred $ per page in research, data and consultancy costs, so an extra few cents for printing is not really an issue as I see it. If it was just for "general home use" I would just have a low-end laser for non-colour use, but I would ensure it's one where the toner includes a new drum. That's not a Brother... Also I prefer to use 100 gsm clay based paper for the inkjets, which is not cheap, particularly if it's the A3 large format inkjet. So what you are saying GF is that both Billy and I are both correct and wrong at the same time :waughh: ? |
plod (107) | ||
| 468565 | 2006-07-08 12:29:00 | So what you are saying GF is that both Billy and I are both correct and wrong at the same time :waughh: ? Beggared if I know Plod. I always understood they used colour to improve greyscale. I thought that is what you were saying as well, but now I am terminally bewildered. I happily concede that they may not have to do so in theory, but that does not alter the fact that in practice that they do. But, on the bright side, it's Cicero's money and ink being used, so all's well in the world ? |
godfather (25) | ||
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