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Thread ID: 76914	2007-02-20 09:30:00	Vista: Isn't it Ridiculous!	Chemical Ali (118)	Press F1

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
526293	2007-02-27 09:24:00	Far too many words in this thread, Right back at the beginning it was made known that Murray dislikes Vista, Or more to the point the state of Vista on launch and the attitude of MS, and that other people love it and want to make little Vista babies with it. Has the situation changed in the last 15000 words?	Metla (12)
526294	2007-02-27 09:27:00	VISTA VISTA VISTA VISTA RULES YYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOO :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D	Hitech (9024)
526295	2007-02-27 10:10:00	now i know it's long, but Murray, atleast read the last part No worrie, at least you have some stamina . Originally Posted by Murray P View Post Hmmm . . . . informed decision making is one of the points being made is it not . Can you show me where the informed consent is for the vast majority of Vistas' new users? i believe i said that was infact an issue, and that the uninformed users would largely be the ones to find vista fine . still an issue though Good, read on . Originally Posted by Murray P View Post You've been assuming all the way through this debate, but let's say you're correct in this . Are there no issues due to Vista with these machines? Will they run any other software or peripherals other than what is supplied by dell/hp? How does dell/hp protect their customers from bugs in the new OS, which we all no amount of "pre-configuring" is going to prevent? ah, good point Thank you, read on . Originally Posted by Murray P View Post I also think that you're being a more than naive in believing that Dell, HP, et al would rock the MS marketing and money making boat, there being plenty of precedent that they will, if not screw over their customers, put their and parties such as MS's and Intel's interests well before those of their customers, even to the detriment of the latter . i never said that, i've always been very strongly anti-dell, but i do admit that for people who simply buy a computer for web browsing/word processing and consider an upgrade to be replacing that computer dells/hps aren't too bad . I'm going to have to make/clarify an assumption here: I never said I did not believe Dell/Hp had a place, however you certainly implied that it was a good that Dell/HP, et al, were on board delivering Vista in a sanitised, preconfigured way that would not bother the user . I am simply stating that the user is further from Dell/HP's heart than MS to make a point (though the choice would be harder for them in the corporate market) . I would also challenge you to prove that users are unharmed by defective unfinished software . Quite apart from the glitches that could ruin productivity or cost them time and money phoning support (probably thinking they have goofed or it's their ISP or whatever and, possibly led to believe that) . Then there is the cost of the software itself which is not discounted to reflect its current state . I thought I had spelled that out loud and clear earlier in the piece . Now, if you take my quotes and your responses above, do you see any ambiguity, do you see the contradiction in your argument in supporting defective, unfinished software, that it's somehow good for them, to their advantage even, just because the users are, by and large unaware, even though they have paid for a finished product? Surely you see that . Surely . Originally Posted by Murray P View Post Besides that, there are still a hell of a lot of people purchasing Vista independent of Dell, HP, et al, are you trying to say they are all informed? If you are, that is just simply wrong . Again the vast majority will have very little idea of the pitfalls, will in fact be unaware beta testers . then perhaps they might learn, or not . again, i do see this as an issue Good . Though I guess you know that the "vast majority" will not learn and in your scenario should be Dell/HP customers, which they probably are given their dominance of the PC market . Ooops forgot Lenovo and PC World in the UK . Originally Posted by Murray P View Post See, you're still being contradictory and ambiguous, the latter aiding the former . What do you want, people to get an unfinished product now or to wait? You have to realise that the people getting it now are largely the uninformed masses, including people purchasing purchasing Vista independently . You can't pluck what you perceive to be good bits that support your argument from here and there and stitch them together in the hope it comes together in a coherent whole, your admission of bad explanation is testament to that . ok, YET AGAIN here's the bit where i'm either badly wording it, or you simply cannot or will not consider it . I am saying that if we wait for a 'finished product', we won't see vista until 2010 at the earliest, and the cost would be even more horrendous . In this scenario no-one wins except for the people who are holding off on their purchase anyway, like you and me . By releasing the product now people who want it now get it now, and people who want it 'finished' still get it, but with several million testers we get the 'finished' product sooner . for us this is a good thing . for the uninformed masses, most will not find issues, and i'd hope the rest learn . this may be ethically unsound, letting the ignorant 'take one for the team', but it's just a computer ***, not exactly life threatening stuff, it's not like data will be corrupted and lives ruined; you just hit restart, and thank whoever decided to put that crash-restore feature in firefox, ms office, ie, etc etc . i know it's not perfect, but it's what has happened . The bit in bold first: You've basically plucked 2010 out of somewhere where I do not dare to think but; I say if it takes that long for MS to produce a viable, reliable (though not perfect, no such thing), product, then it takes that long . It would ultimately make them better software builders and be better for all users . As an aside, it has taken them what, 5, 6 years to build an upgrade to XP, that is pretty bloody awful if you think about it, though stuffing Vista full of DRM probably took the larger slice of that time . Now the underlined bit: If people want it now, they can sign on as fully informed beta testers . Perhaps there could be a sliding scale once the OS gets to release candidate status where the testers pay a discounted price measured against the usability and reliability of the software . But you should never ever expect people to stump up good money for unfinished product . Why people blindly accept this, I can only put down to false loyalty and/or bloody good marketing/con job . Originally Posted by Murray P View Post It certainly ain't "a bad thing for MS to do", it's bloody good for them profit wise, but it ain't good for their customers, how could it be good to have defective software, you still haven't answered that . the uninformed masses won't realise this, and if they do, all the better . MS has always done this, as a result they have over 90% of the market . I think I have answered this adequately above and in my following quote . I will add this though, how does having 90% of the market justify ripping people off? There is no inherent right, no law or moral precept that says, if your marketing is good, or you have a certain share of the market, you have a right to perpetuate the status quo . Apart from monopolies and cartels, this does not happen, but guess what, there are laws and strictures against such entities, societies generally abhor them and therefore governments seek to limit there power and market . Do you see that, do you see the sense in that? Originally Posted by Murray P View Post And please, don't trot out the tired old excuse that any business practice that brings in money is by definition "good business" . That's a fall back sop spewed out to justify what amounts to fraud in may cases and to ease the consciences of shareholders who profit by supporting iniquitous and nefarious "business practices" . It'd be merely empty rhetoric for the consumption of the simple minded if so much harm wasn't done behind that disingenuous mask; Adnan Khashoggi, tobacco companies, asbestos manufacturers, our own Telecom and developers throwing up sub-standard leaky apartments have all used "good business" or variants to justify their actions . So on that point, go take a flying F . oops, i think i just did, but a hardware incompatibility isn't exactly a leaky home or terminal cancer . still a pain, but only temporary Well, the money at stake is certainly many times the quantum which is going and going to go down the leaky homes gurgler . I should have thrown in the big pharmaceuticals in there too, eh! The point I was making, and I suspect you choose to ignore, is that "good business practice" in this context, however it's dressed up and by whomever is perpetrating it and profiting from it, is not very nice . I also think that you should realise that billions of dollars per month are at stake in respect of MS alone and, that they have been proved to be poor corporate citizens in courts of law in several countries and further have bought their way out of trouble countless times and will do so countless more . Just because the big C is not invoiced, do not attempt to belittle the effect that this type of behaviour can have, though I'd much rather be alive and own Vista than be dead . Originally Posted by Murray P View Post Ummm, I'm still waiting for a coherent argument that tells me that providing defective, unfinished, software is good for anyone other than MS, although I concede that a few fanboys and girls are creaming their pants over Vista, so I guess it must be good for them at least, in a perverted sort of way . now i'm no fanboy, and as such i do listen, and can see that while you want the corporate world to act responsibly and ethically, they do not . i have resigned to this fact . it's good to see you're still kicking, i do hope you succeed in educating the masses for everyone's benefit, and would help you if you proposed a way that might actually work, See all of the above . but in the meantime our problem is that we both have different values/beleifs . as such what i find reasonable you do not . can we not just agree to disagree? as you said yourself this argument is doing no-one any good, so could we just leave it with what dignity we have remaining? also the fact that you have resorted to insults, weasel words and other defamatory practices does not strengthen your argument, but actually draws attention from it . it actually seems a bit hypocritical considering your post about me and (insert other members name here) i don't mean to cause offense, but please don't do it, it only feeds the fire thats causes these lengthy retaliatory posts . Remaining Dignity . . . . . I never brought any to the table in the first place, but you grab as much as you like, it's not an issue for me . Got you attention though didn't I ;) And there's nothing wrong with your post, except for the bits that I disagree with, which are just plain wrong, but in that, I thank you for helping me make my point . Besides, mine is now longer than yours . Your turn .	Murray P (44)
526296	2007-02-27 10:15:00	Disclaimer: The above post has not been proof read. Any errors in form, context or content and the views expressed so eloquently therein are purely incidental to the fact that the author is utterly and completely and irretrievably insane and therefore can not in any way be held responsible or liable for said errors in form, context or content and the views expressed so eloquently therein. So there!	Murray P (44)
526297	2007-02-27 10:30:00	Your turn. i will not be baited, i think everyone else has had enough of this. as i said, i think i'm right and you think you're right. seeing as neither of us are going to change on this is there no point in discussing this further, just repeating ourselves ad infinitum. perhaps you should start a thread on MS ethics around the premature vista release? EDIT: not retorting your post is incredibly difficult.... argh, i agree that MS screws the consumer, but thier own best interests, and historically this has remained true. consider that market share evidence... NO MORE:xmouth:	motorbyclist (188)
526298	2007-02-27 10:34:00	I hear the movie was a bit of a fizzer. www.imagef1.net.nz	Metla (12)
526299	2007-02-27 10:40:00	Oh you injure me deeply and for nought, bait it is not. You may take your turn or not as you wish, it is an offer to debate rationally, to find flaws in my argument and, if they are there I will accept them. And no, this thread suits just fine for the moment, I see no need at this juncture to clutter the forum with any more threads if this one is perfectly serviceable. Though I may take up your generous offer some time in the future, if that's ok.	Murray P (44)
526300	2007-02-27 10:43:00	I hear the movie was a bit of a fizzer. www.imagef1.net.nz Yeah, indeed it did. Something to do with the feature length, or was that the length of the features? Never mind, it was crap nevertheless.	Murray P (44)
526301	2007-02-27 10:45:00	Yeah, indeed it did. Something to do with the feature length, or was that the length of the features? Never mind, it was crap nevertheless. agreed, can't wait for the sequel:rolleyes:	motorbyclist (188)
526302	2007-02-27 10:51:00	:lol: That's better .	Murray P (44)
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