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Thread ID: 139865	2015-07-13 02:48:00	Can I have a $ each way please?	B.M. (505)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1404586	2015-07-15 21:37:00	So we're in agreement that coal fired power stations give off small quantities of carbon emissions, which don't contribute to climate change. That's good to know. FTFY	B.M. (505)
1404587	2015-07-16 03:56:00	Ahem.... www.msnbc.com www.businessspectator.com.au www.mnn.com	Jayess64 (8703)
1404588	2015-07-16 04:35:00	Ahem.... www.msnbc.com www.businessspectator.com.au www.mnn.com :lol: No surprises there. Those with their noses in the trough aren't going to give up easily. However, for those with open minds here is an article from the much respected Time magazine dating back to 1974. I would have posted just the link, but it seems you now have to pay to view Time magazine's archives so here goes. U.S. Science: Another Ice Age? Monday, Jun. 24, 1974 In Africa, drought continues for the sixth consecutive year, adding terribly to the toll of famine victims. During 1972 record rains in parts of the U.S., Pakistan and Japan caused some of the worst flooding in centuries. In Canada's wheat belt, a particularly chilly and rainy spring has delayed planting and may well bring a disappointingly small harvest. Rainy Britain, on the other hand, has suffered from uncharacteristic dry spells the past few springs. A series of unusually cold winters has gripped the American Far West, while New England and northern Europe have recently experienced the mildest winters within anyone's recollection. As they review the bizarre and unpredictable weather pattern of the past several years, a growing number of scientists are beginning to suspect that many seemingly contradictory meteorological fluctuations are actually part of a global climatic upheaval. However widely the weather varies from place to place and time to time, when meteorologists take an average of temperatures around the globe they find that the atmosphere has been growing gradually cooler for the past three decades. The trend shows no indication of reversing. Climatological Cassandras are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the weather aberrations they are studying may be the harbinger of another ice age. Telltale signs are everywhere —from the unexpected persistence and thickness of pack ice in the waters around Iceland to the southward migration of a warmth-loving creature like the armadillo from the Midwest.Since the 1940s the mean global temperature has dropped about 2.7° F. Although that figure is at best an estimate, it is supported by other convincing data. When Climatologist George J. Kukla of Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory and his wife Helena analyzed satellite weather data for the Northern Hemisphere, they found that the area of the ice and snow cover had suddenly increased by 12% in 1971 and the increase has persisted ever since. Areas of Baffin Island in the Canadian Arctic, for example, were once totally free of any snow in summer; now they are covered year round. Scientists have found other indications of global cooling. For one thing there has been a noticeable expansion of the great belt of dry, high-altitude polar winds —the so-called circumpolar vortex—that sweep from west to east around the top and bottom of the world. Indeed it is the widening of this cap of cold air that is the immediate cause of Africa's drought. By blocking moisture-bearing equatorial winds and preventing them from bringing rainfall to the parched sub-Sahara region, as well as other drought-ridden areas stretching all the way from Central America to the Middle East and India, the polar winds have in effect caused the Sahara and other deserts to reach farther to the south. Paradoxically, the same vortex has created quite different weather quirks in the U.S. and other temperate zones. As the winds swirl around the globe, their southerly portions undulate like the bottom of a skirt. Cold air is pulled down across the Western U.S. and warm air is swept up to the Northeast. The collision of air masses of widely differing temperatures and humidity can create violent storms—the Midwest's recent rash of disastrous tornadoes, for example Sunspot Cycle. The changing weather is apparently connected with differences in the amount of energy that the earth's surface receives from the sun. Changes in the earth's tilt and distance from the sun could, for instance, significantly increase or decrease the amount of solar radiation falling on either hemisphere—thereby altering the earth's climate. Some observers have tried to connect the eleven-year sunspot cycle with climate patterns, but have so far been unable to provide a satisfactory explanation of how the cycle might be involved. Man, too, may be somewhat responsible for the cooling trend. The University of Wisconsin's Reid A. Bryson and other climatologists suggest that dust and other particles released into the atmosphere as a result of farming and fuel burning may be blocking more and more sunlight from reaching and heating the surface of the earth. Climatic Balance. Some scientists like Donald Oilman, chief of the National Weather Service's long-range-prediction group, think that the cooling trend may be only temporary. But all agree that vastly more information is needed about the major influences on the earth's climate. Indeed, it is to gain such knowledge that 38 ships and 13 aircraft, carrying scientists from almost 70 nations, are now assembling in the Atlantic and elsewhere for a massive 100-day study of the effects of the tropical seas and atmosphere on worldwide weather. The study itself is only part of an international scientific effort known acronymically as GARP (for Global Atmospheric Research Program). Whatever the cause of the cooling trend, its effects could be extremely serious, if not catastrophic. Scientists figure that only a 1% decrease in the amount of sunlight hitting the earth's surface could tip the climatic balance, and cool the planet enough to send it sliding down the road to another ice age within only a few hundred years. The earth's current climate is something of an anomaly; in the past 700,000 years, there have been at least seven major episodes of glaciers spreading over much of the planet. Temperatures have been as high as they are now only about 5% of the time. But there is a peril more immediate than the prospect of another ice age. Even if temperature and rainfall patterns change only slightly in the near future in one or more of the three major grain-exporting countries—the U.S., Canada and Australia —global food stores would be sharply reduced. University of Toronto Climatologist Kenneth Hare, a former president of the Royal Meteorological Society, believes that the continuing drought and the recent failure of the Russian harvest gave the world a grim premonition of what might happen. Warns Hare: "I don't believe that the world's present population is sustainable if there are more than three years like 1972 in a row." So you see this debate has been going on since well before some of you were born and we still have no consensus. :lol:	B.M. (505)
1404589	2015-07-16 05:52:00	Hardly Surprising that after 41 more years of study and scientific advancements the model is not the same as it was in the 70's. There was a short dip in the 70's as is clear on any graph of global temperatures you are likely to find (including on those links Jayess posted) as is the general upwards trend. The general consensus among Scientists is that global temperatures are rising and that C02 levels are the primary cause. Sure you can find scientists that refute it but they are in the overwhelming minority. If you choose to believe that the largest percentage of our most intelligent thinkers are agenda driven Liars that's your prerogative but I think chances of you being correct are about the same as the % of scientists that agree with you (very small). I will agree that a lot (if not all) of the politics and taxes based around climate change are BS but I think it's based on some very well established data. Scientists point out what they think will happen, politicians however are not equipped to deal with it in any rational way so they just create another form of tax and pat themselves on the back for being environmentally conscious. Don't worry though it'll all come right in the end, there are not many possible outcomes. 1. Scientists are wrong and the Earth can sustain us no matter what we do, population keeps growing but all is rosy 2. We manage to find a way to live in balance with our environment 3. We are unable to stop what we've started and global disasters reduce the population for us, eventually finding a natural balance. 4. We become extinct, possibly taking a great deal of other life forms with us 1. & 4. Are both incredibly unlikely (at least in the short term for 4. ), 2. is a huge ask but possible, 3. seems increasingly likely given our tendency as a race to make like Ostriches. Incidentally I stopped contributing to this when people started making personal attacks, I disagree with that as much as I disagree with you. Your recent post got me interested again. We can disagree without resorting to that rubbish.	dugimodo (138)
1404590	2015-07-16 06:51:00	#3 looks spot on for me. Ken	kenj (9738)
1404591	2015-07-16 09:07:00	The general consensus among Scientists is that global temperatures are rising and that C02 levels are the primary cause. Sure you can find scientists that refute it but they are in the overwhelming minority. If you choose to believe that the largest percentage of our most intelligent thinkers are agenda driven Liars that's your prerogative but I think chances of you being correct are about the same as the % of scientists that agree with you (very small). Well I disagree, there are a huge number of scientists that are saying "told you so" after Mann and his mates fudged the figures. The pro lobby can't afford to admit they were wrong it's a simple as that. But for your consideration. How do you explain how over 100 years ago Amundsen sailed through the North West Passage and over 100 years later Ice Breakers get stuck in Antarctic Ice, yet the Ice Caps are supposedly melting? HERE (en.wikipedia.org) & HERE (www.theguardian.com) Worse, I’m still waiting for the Aids Virus to wipe out civilisation, the Bird Flue Pandemic, the Swine Flu Pandemic, the Ebola Pandemic and worst of all the Y2K bug. (The water in my bath isn’t looking flash after 15 years waiting for the Y2K bug to interrupt water supply's.) All these things were predicted by the finest Scientific Minds, well, depending upon the judge. ;)	B.M. (505)
1404592	2015-07-16 09:45:00	:lol: No surprises there. Those with their noses in the trough aren't going to give up easily. However, for those with open minds here is an article from the much respected Time magazine dating back to 1974. I would have posted just the link, but it seems you now have to pay to view Time magazine's archives so here goes. [B] (Time article deleted to save space) So you see this debate has been going on since well before some of you were born and we still have no consensus. :lol: At last we have something to chew on. I was going to make a reasonably extensive response to the article from Time, but dugimodo got in first and I think he did a pretty decent job. As he points out, the article summarises the state of knowledge 41 years ago and things have moved a long way since then. It is generally agreed that the main cause of the cooling was the quantity of aerosol particles injected into the atmosphere during the intense increase in industrial activity following World War II. This was recognised as polluting the atmosphere, but also led to reflection of solar radiation that caused the atmosphere to cool. Clean Air Acts were promulgated by most of the main industrial nations, with the result that aerosols decreased, the incident radiation at the earth's surface increased and CO2 got to do its thing, giving us the increased temperatures that have been measured ever since. Incidentally, it is interesting to compare the temperature curves from the Northern & Southern Hemispheres over this period. The northern curves show the pronounced cooling discussed in Time, the southern curve shows a rise in temperature until the early '40s followed by a dip to the end of the decade when the warming trend takes over - the cooling is barely significant. That would be consistent with the aerosol production being mainly in the Northern Hemisphere. A point to note about the Time article is that it discusses observed temperatures, but at that time there was no clear idea about what was causing the changes. The aerosol explanation was mentioned. but there seemed to be many other possible explanations as well. It was around this period that atmospheric research was starting to get a lot more attention. The significance of CO2 came front and centre with the precise measurements by Charles Keeling at Mauna Loa that showed quite unambiguously that the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere was increasing, and the increase was accelerating. The ability of CO2 to absorb infra-red radiation was already well known, so the conclusion was obvious. All subsequent research has confirmed the role of CO2 in global warming as well as the role of other gases with similar absorption properties. So the "coming ice age" of the 70's turned out to be a bad dream, dissipated by better data and better understanding of how our planet works, all achieved by the efforts of many very good scientists. What faces us now is no dream, but a hard reality. One final comment: I fully agree with dugimodo that we can discuss all this robustly if we like, but let's cut out the name-calling and personal insults. They get us nowhere.	Jayess64 (8703)
1404593	2015-07-16 10:44:00	The original post and posted link was all about the sun changing, Solar activity will fall by 60 per cent as two waves of fluid "effectively cancel each other out". So with the actual topic, theres absolutely nothing anyone can do, its not like humans can change the suns activity. What ever will happen will happen.	wainuitech (129)
1404594	2015-07-16 10:58:00	The original post and posted link was all about the sun changing, So with the actual topic, theres absolutely nothing anyone can do, its not like humans can change the suns activity. What ever will happen will happen. That's very true, but the issue here is the way this report is getting used by those pushing a barrow about climate change being a myth or a hoax or a fraud, or just an unfortunate mistake.	Jayess64 (8703)
1404595	2015-07-16 11:13:00	That's very true, but the issue here is the way this report is getting used by those pushing a barrow about climate change being a myth or a hoax or a fraud, or just an unfortunate mistake. Wouldn't be PF1 if we all stayed on topic eh :p :D	wainuitech (129)
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