| Forum Home | ||||
| Press F1 | ||||
| Thread ID: 81250 | 2007-07-22 00:30:00 | Windows or Linux | aidanmaz (7180) | Press F1 |
| Post ID | Timestamp | Content | User | ||
| 571259 | 2007-07-22 06:05:00 | Yup . . that's it . . . acronyms! Ya get so many new things to learn . . and they don't make it easy either . Actually, many try, it's difficult however when you're doing stuff for free to produce manuals and such because media costs . The "lingo" that Linux users have implemented make it so hard to understand . . . and I don't think there's a decent dictionary on the terms, the reasons for using or needing the command lines, what they actually do and what mayhem you are installing when you hit the ENTER button . The saviour is Wikipedia . Linux people like to tell people about this cool stuff and it doesn't cost anything to do it on Wikipedia . Just enter the "lingo" into Wikipedia search and away you go . It kinda like disarming an amateur atomic bomb: "Now . . . what color wire do I cut next"? It's ALWAYS the red one! . . . . . . . . . . No hang on . . . Was it: It's NEVER the red one! If I ever decide to play again with trying to learn it, I am going to use an old Dell Dimension 750 tower (P-III) and just let it BSOD or whatever color the death warning is in Linux until one of two things happens: 1) I throw the Dell out the window in total exasperation . . . unfortunately that's only a few feet to the ground from all my windows here . 2) I die first . OpenSuSE 10 . 2 can be bought as a boxed set with a Manual . Bang the DVD/CDin with a blank HD reboot keep hitting "next" type in root password, keeping hitting next some more, type in network connection stuff, "next" some more wait (depending on network connection speed), "next" a few more times, type in Username and password, "next" a few more times click finish! Default Install Done! :) total elapsed time about an hour, not including downloading updates . If you want to skip the updates don't put in your net connection details . Or you can read the manual as you go! The reason most people get screwed up is that they try to make it more complicated than needs to be . The defaults work! :) Seems every thing you do in Linux is a steep learning experience . Make that a "vertical" learning experience . Every Linux CD-ROM should come with a geek in the box . :nerd: I DO wish I could figger it out though . . . it looks like a lot of fun . More than that, it's productive, from video through sound and Graphics, business and networking . The whole shamozzle . Then after a while you screw with the CLI (Command Line Interface) and go "OOoo Cool" at which point you're hooked and you grow a propellor on your head . :lol: |
Yorick (8120) | ||
| 571260 | 2007-07-22 06:09:00 | Aidanmaz- I was just reading Bletch's post and it jogged my memory of last time I tried Linux. There is a Linux Users Group in Auckland, from memory they meet somewhere in the central city, so not too far from Te Atatu. Jen is involved 'in some way', so I'm sure she can give you details of where/when they meet. |
Shortcircuit (1666) | ||
| 571261 | 2007-07-22 06:16:00 | I don't know what all the fuss is about with being forced to use the command line all the time. For a standard desktop home user, you would hardly have to use it. Heck, I installed Mepis after losing my Fedora hard drive because I wanted a quick fully functionally OS to get me going again. I actually kept Mepis for about 3 months before I started to feel like I was losing my Linux skills as I hadn't had to use the command line for that entire time! I went back to Fedora just to feel at home again (although I rarely use the command line for system stuff there anyway). :p I know some of you have struggled with Linux, but to be fair you jumped right in and then attempted some advanced things that were performed purely by command line. Not a good introduction nor a fair representation of the average Linux experience. aidanmaz> I say go for it. Pick a distro like SuSE or Mepis (or even Ubuntu/Kubuntu) and just play around with it, but do keep an open mind. Only way to find out if it will suit your needs. :) |
Jen (38) | ||
| 571262 | 2007-07-22 06:25:00 | Yorick, Can you tell me what the (main) differences are between Open Suse latest 10.2... I think I upgraded to and SLED? I know I shouldn't ask... and I know I'm tempted to tempt fate again by giving it a go if you think it is so 'far ahead of Windows', but I have a spare HD spinning around. I'm just having trouble reconciling my recent experience with your experience :D For instance, does SLED come with a different Control Centre? (ie not YAST) as Yast was a pain in the arse. I actually looked around the Novell site and there is a dirth of actual info on what you get and what it can do (not getting at you or Novell, it's standard in computer land 'Sell the dream, not the substance'). The Nvidia control panel app for Linux was worse than useless, it doesn't matter to me if that was because of nvidia being 'tight' or not. I've got a good quality vid card, good quality LCD and I went with Nvidia because of the excellent colour control program (Nview) that they produce. There is nothing like it for ATI- I know as I have an ATI card in my laptop. |
Shortcircuit (1666) | ||
| 571263 | 2007-07-22 06:57:00 | Shortcircuit: Have you ever tried PCLinuxOS? It is a live CD based on Mandrivia linux. (you can of course choose to install it to the HDD) It is a distro that gos out of its way to make hardware configuration easy/simple. If you need to do a task, chance are that you can do it with a couple of clicks from with its comprehensive control center. It also has the best support for hardware that I have come across in linux so far. It also includes problematic things like java plugins, and support for mp3 and windows media formats. Still no DVD support automatically, although a little side trip to synaptic package manager will see you right there... |
Sherman (9181) | ||
| 571264 | 2007-07-22 08:00:00 | ...getting them to teach you how to install a (IMHO) real distro (Debian, Gentoo or maybe even Fedora)?Apologies... when I posted this I should also have added that I have never tried SuSe (in any of its variants). Was given a dvd copy (of SuSe 10) but it would always crash before the install. Because I now use Gentoo, I havent really gone back to try it. I have heard good things about Open SuSe in that it is a good distro for newish to linux people. But like I said, I have never used it (unlike XandrOS, Debian, FedoraCore, Arch, Mandriva, Mepis, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Knoppix, PCLOS - all of which I have used and liked/loathed to varying degrees) |
Myth (110) | ||
| 571265 | 2007-07-22 09:55:00 | I have been using Linux in one form or another since 1998 and would not go back to Windows on my personal PC for anything. Admittedly there are times when it is harder to use than Windows -- but those times are getting far between (it is not just my experience but the fact that the GUI desktops are now mature products). You cannot make the blanket statement that "Linux is hard" - I know of a number of elderly users who are not experienced who have no problems using their Linux PCs for all they need to. | johnd (85) | ||
| 571266 | 2007-07-22 10:09:00 | Thanks Yorick- you might be surprised, but I do appreciate the offer and I hope that Aidianz takes you up on it . I must admit that I should have known what I was getting into as it's not the 1st time I looked at Linux . We also looked at changing over our desktops to Linux as we already run Linux backends . The consensus was from the IT guys 'don't do it- Linux ain't there yet' Careful with consensus amongst IT guys: Question is: What perspective are they coming from . . . IT Administrators or End Users I do Migration consulting and training and invariably I find tthat what IT Guys fear most is HelpDesk Calls . They generally consider the "frontdesk" people only slightly above the level of Chimps whereas I find the opposite, it's just that IT guys often have crap skills when it comes giving to help the "Simple End Users" . The reason that the SEU keep coming back is that they didn't understand the first time because nobody translated the Geekspeak, this is not just a Linux thing . I'm not a Geek or at least not a "Techno-geek" I'm a "Pedagogy-Geek"(Translate=Teacher) who has some IT skills . My job is doing that translation . IT guys with Linux in the backend is no problem, because they can hack about and try things to solve problems or create solutions . Often, it's a trial and error thing . no loss other than a bit of time and IT managers understand that this often has to be the case . However that doesn't work for your FrontDesk staff . If they have a problem they need a solution first up and now, so the guy used to Linux in the back end with the usual "Hack it and see" approach, is not at his best in that situation . Windows guys can generally do that, thats what MCSE, A+, etc trains them to do . The opensource paradigm can be it's own worst enemy . For instance, The AMES institute in Auckland is a PTE that is the official examiner for the Linux Professional Institute Certification . How many have sat LPIC level 1 & 2 over the past 3 years? Total: Zero, nobody wants to pay, even more so employers . Many are prepared to pay out considerable amounts for A+ and MCSE and so forth, but not it seems . . . . However the truth of the matter with regard to migration is that it is a lot easier than many make it out to be . . . My recommendation for migration is usually a softly softly approach with lots of End User input, project mapping, change management processes and so on . However there have been some much more brutal and successful models: Take a look at this guys experience ( . lobby4linux . com/index . php?/archives/85-One-Small-Business-Gladly-Gives-Microsoft-the-Boot . html" target="_blank">blog . lobby4linux . com) I looked at Linux this time purely from a 'what can it do compared to Windows XP/Vista' and 'how easy compared to XP/Vista' is it to use . One of the great things about Linux is that you can make it as hard or as easy as you want . The GUI is a separate application to the OS so you can make it do or not do whatever you want . Make only specific applications available to End users for instance . Installing a Linux Distro with limited knowledge of the power of it all is probably a little counterproductive . Talk to someone who really knows it . Andreas Girardet at Enterprise IT on the Shore or Ian Soffe at OSS in Auckland are two that come to mind Unfortunately for me it fell short and was just not worth the time to get it going properly . The Video issues were pretty much the last straw . I had to install Nvidia control panel stuff through the command line, but like last time all the instructions were either incorrect or incomplete and I spent days trawling (maybe trolling) around forums and wikis trying to find answers . Ultimately there have to be substantially good reasons for changing . Doing it simply for the sake of it, isn't enough of a reason . The vast majority of my OOo training and migration work is on a Windows platform . It's one of the reasons I'm a fan of Novell . They have taken a pragmatic approach to interoperability . . . not exactly popular with the purists but hey . . . If the numbers stack up now and into the future, then go for it, if not then stay with the status quo . . . . . < shameless plug >as long you're using OOo of course ;) < /shameless plug > I had heard that SLED was pretty good and maybe mistakenly thought that an updated plain old Suse would be a close runner up, but it didn't seem much more advanced than the version (10 . 1?) that I tried a year ago . 10 . 2 is a good one Can you tell me what the (main) differences are between Open Suse latest 10 . 2 . . . I think I upgraded to and SLED? I know I shouldn't ask . . . and I know I'm tempted to tempt fate again by giving it a go if you think it is so 'far ahead of Windows', but I have a spare HD spinning around . I'm just having trouble reconciling my recent experience with your experience For instance, does SLED come with a different Control Centre? (ie not YAST) as Yast was a pain in the arse . Heh, Unfortunately YAST (Yet Another Setup Tool) is still there . Yast is a Love/Hate thing . I used to hate it but have grown to like it . However I put that down to the fact that I was used to MCC (Mandrake Control Centre) Mandrake's GUI admin tool . Once I got the knack of YOU (Yast Online Update) I've become a fan I actually looked around the Novell site and there is a dirth of actual info on what you get and what it can do (not getting at you or Novell, it's standard in computer land 'Sell the dream, not the substance') . Yep bloody annoying, however jumping into the OpenSuSE forums would be helpful . The main difference is the inclusion of a lot of Novel apps that integrate SLED smoothly with other Novell products such as Netware, groupwise and OES . SLED does not include Server stuff, that's reserved for SLE Server 10, however the DVD packs I have, have both . The Server elements are in OpenSuSE . SLE has Novells Identity Management Software, I-folder and some security products . In short it is aimed directly at the Enterprise Market whereas OpenSuSE is aimed at the knowledgeable Homeuser/Small Business . OpenSuSE contains more bleeding edge stuff as well whereas SLE tends to stick to stable The Nvidia control panel app for Linux was worse than useless, it doesn't matter to me if that was because of nvidia being 'tight' or not . I've got a good quality vid card, good quality LCD and I went with Nvidia because of the excellent colour control program (Nview) that they produce . There is nothing like it for ATI- I know as I have an ATI card in my laptop . I have an ATI card on my Compaq Laptop and it runs almost all the highend graphical desktop stuff, ie: Transparent windows, Desktop cube, wobbly windows and so forth and it's pretty old, but yeah you're right the colour management tools aren't up there . I still have high hopes for 'open source' software- like OO . My end argument is that it doesn't need to be free, but it needs to be good I doubt that there is an OpenSource in Business advocate that would not agree with that sentiment . The fact that some serious Corporates with serious money see the value in OpenSource goes to prove that it is happening . The list of Corporate contributors to OOo is a good measure . Sun, Novell, Intel, IBM, Redhat, Canonical to name a few . At the end of the day it comes down to choice . and OO wins on both counts . Maybe one day there will be a Linux distro that I can say the same about . Heh, well IMHO, if you talking in a business . . . :) |
Yorick (8120) | ||
| 571267 | 2007-07-22 11:29:00 | Thanks for that quite reasoned reply Yorick . . . my eyes did glaze over right after the mention of IT though :p Your explanation could partly explain why our IT guys will happily sit there all day coding on Linux boxes, but start shaking at the thought of mere mortals with their own linux to break . The funny thing is that I am the 'go-between' telling them how their coding should work in the real world! I can hear Jen chanting: "Repeat after me, The command line is my friend . . . the command line is my friend" :p Jen, the problem that I have found (both times I tried Linux) is that to get it anywhere near the functionality of XP I had to use the command line, and both times the proceedure/instructions listed in forums/wikis were incomplete and had gaps . . . in other words it was not possible to follow those instructions from beginning to end . This is called 'Setting yourself up for failure without even trying' . Should it always be with Linux that the thing you require it to do the most is made the hardest thing to do? Have a look at the unzip thread and you just might get the idea :) I honestly looked at the result after a week of more or less full-time 'hands on with Linux' and thought that there was no way any of the distros I tried would be useable long term and I hadn't got as far as thinking about more specialised software that I use every day in Windows (It takes me back to the horror that was attempting to install wine, which I noticed was actually included with 1 distro this time!) . To me it's like taking a car for a test drive- you know instinctively it's never going to last the distance if you buy it, but would be perfect for someone else :D My advice to Aidanmaz is to give it a go as well, it seems some people 'click' with Linux- or more precisely certain flavours of Linux, so try a few different distros if you can (Simply Mepis came closest for me) . Be aware that unless you go to Yorick's course, you will probably have to dowload your own Distros (usually around 600-700mb, but up to 4gig for 'complete' DVD versions with additional programs) and burn them to CD as ISOs (you will need a CD burning program such as Nero that can do ISO files) . You will also have to figure out the correct distro/file to download from the download sites or mirrors- this can be much trickier than you think as there are lots different versions and very little info apart from the file names . More than once I got half way through a 600mb download and realised that it was the wrong file . The experience is all good if a little bit frustrating, it just seems that one can be too experienced in the wrong way to cope with some of the things Linux throws at you . I still give Linux A for effort and C for application :thumbs: |
Shortcircuit (1666) | ||
| 571268 | 2007-07-22 18:42:00 | There's a chap on Trademe who can provide most distros. Also linux threads pop up in their computer support forum quite a lot these days. Seems the word is getting around. | Bonez (10505) | ||
| 1 2 3 4 5 6 | |||||