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Thread ID: 81250	2007-07-22 00:30:00	Windows or Linux	aidanmaz (7180)	Press F1

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
571249	2007-07-22 04:37:00	Yup . . that's it . . . acronyms! Ya get so many new things to learn . . and they don't make it easy either . The "lingo" that Linux users have implemented make it so hard to understand . . . and I don't think there's a decent dictionary on the terms, the reasons for using or needing the command lines, what they actually do and what mayhem you are installing when you hit the ENTER button . It kinda like disarming an amateur atomic bomb: "Now . . . what color wire do I cut next"? If I ever decide to play again with trying to learn it, I am going to use an old Dell Dimension 750 tower (P-III) and just let it BSOD or whatever color the death warning is in Linux until one of two things happens: 1) I throw the Dell out the window in total exasperation . . . unfortunately that's only a few feet to the ground from all my windows here . 2) I die first . Seems every thing you do in Linux is a steep learning experience . Make that a "vertical" learning experience . Every Linux CD-ROM should come with a geek in the box . :nerd: I DO wish I could figger it out though . . . it looks like a lot of fun .	SurferJoe46 (51)
571250	2007-07-22 04:37:00	One of the biggest problems new users have with Linux is that it's not windows! While you can quite happily do most of the same tasks, these are often done in different ways - there is a learning curve. Linux is not just a free version of Windows! Regarding the issue of support - most (although no all; unfortunately there are exceptions) knowledgable Linux users will be willing to help you. However, you will be expected to make a reasonable attempt to help yourself first - they have better things to do than spoonfeed you information that you could find for yourself with a couple of quick Google searches, or a brief peek at the manual. Remember that unlike Windows or OSX, you do not (usually) have a consumer's right to demand support if things don't work as they are supposed to. With that out of the way, in my opinion Linux is brilliant - and it certainly fits my needs far better than any other OS I have tried (although admittedly I am a geek :rolleyes:). It's customisable beyond any other OS available, and has a vast selection of powerful software - most of it free. Software installation is usually utterly painless - where in Windows one would run a program installer, in Linux you can achieve the same end with one simple command. If you're the GUI type, fire up one of the many graphical package managers available - just tick one box on the list next to what you want installed, and click the 'Apply' button. A few strange and magical things will take care of themselves, and suddenly the software is installed - it's as easy as that. Possibly one of the most important things you will ever learn about Linux is the existance of so-called 'man pages'. Man pages (manual pages) contain the documentation for almost every program or utility you are ever likely to use, and are usually automatically installed at the same time as the program they describe. Assuming you want to find the manual for a program called 'pidgin', type 'man pidgin' at the command line. This will bring up the manual. If you're a sucker for a nice GUI, fire up konqueror and type '#pidgin' or 'man:/pidgin' in the address bar - this will display the manpage in a browser-like interface from within konqueror. There are also several other programs capable of displaying and working with mangapes. Suddenly, you'll find one of the snags - the documentation seems to be missing a lot of information... The reason for this is that most developers hate writing documentation. The manual(s) will usually contain only the things that basic common-sense and a bit of experimentation won't reveal - and some rely more on the experimentation than others. If you encounter this problem, try looking at any built-in help feature the program may contain, or look at the program's website - a lot of the more detailed documentation is kept online. The next place to turn (or the first place if you're having a problem with something) is Google. There are countless thousands of help forums, howtos, guides, FAQs etc on Linux, and if you are having a problem the odds are highly likely that someone before you has also experienced the same issue, and has written about it. Most of the time, a quick glance through the top results will contain a solution to your problem or query, often with step-by-step instructions on how to accomplish your goal. Google wasn't any good? Now you've reached the 'asking for help' stage. There are several ways to go about this, the most common of which are posting on a help forum, or asking for help in one of the numerous IRC support channels - most of these channels are on the Freenode (http://freenode.org/) IRC network. These are some common conventions to follow when asking for help through either of these mediums: Don't ask if you can ask for help. The whole reason these forums / channels exist is for helping people, so just go ahead and post your question. Keep it concise. Don't go off on a long ramble, but make sure you include all relevant information. Include all relevant detail. Nothing is more annoying than a post says 'Help me, it broke!' without answering these questions: What is broken? In what way is it broken? What were you doing when it broke? What error(s), if any, were reported? You should also detail which 'distribution' you are running, and which desktop environment if applicable (KDE/Gnome/something else). If you can, ask on a forum / channel specific to your distro, as you are likely to get more relevant answers. Depending on your question, you may also need to include additional information. Another avenue you can pursue for help is to join your local Linux User Group (LUG). They should be able to answer most questions you may have, and you will learn a lot. Depending on his / her inclination, you may also be able to approach your 'local geek', however before doing this please bear in mind that you are probably not the only person asking him / her questions! There are also several excellent Linux geeks who reside here in PressF1, who will be more than willing to answer your questions. :D :rolleyes:	Erayd (23)
571251	2007-07-22 04:41:00	I am still not convinced that Linux is a good system . . you get short-armed when you ask the geek-y types a question like they are all insulted or whatever . There are some really good people here who run it successfully, but if you can't rent them personally and have them stay at your home to teach you things, you'll stumble on in the dark for a long time I feel . Other forums will shun you, and hey . . you'll get shunned by some shallow people anywhere . . but that's just because they're immature and like to keep Linux all secret . Until Linux gets friendlier and/or they send people to your home to instruct you how to use it . . . you'll get angry and prolly lose interest in the system in the end . If I didn't accidentally get mine running, I'd be using something else as my server . Flames coming! Get ready! There are "people" who hate this sort of revelation . . . just wait and see! Keep a dual-boot system until you actually get all your adult teeth in Linux though . My only comment to this is: Where were you asking for help Joe? Not one of these distros comes close to Windows XP for useability . There are still wild variations in what hardware they will detect and run and the Nvidia graphics controls are still rudimentary . I also had difficulties with text clarity using an LCD monitor, just not up to scratch . One of my really big grumbles with the linux install method I noticed this time is that you really do not know what you are downloading . . . it just seems to be enless mbs of crap to achieve one small 'update' . Doing anything in Linux is so convoluted that you end up feeling dizzy and have go have a cuppa and a lie down :horrified My advice- if you have heaps of time free, you enjoy reading instructions that are (still) incomplete, love using a command line because it is the only way you can install something, enjoy being 'looked down upon' when asking for the answers to the 'missing links' and want to end up with an operating system that is never going to be as advanced as Windows or Apple (did I say that???) . . . then go for it, it can't hurt- much . :thumbs: I sooo wanted to ditch Windows too . But now well, I'm over it . Grumble grumble grumble . This is about the 5th time I've watched you ***** on in this forum about your experience with Linux . Get over it . What you and other windows users (not to mention mac zealots) tend to forget is that windows and os x have had millions of dollars thrown at them to make them more user friendly and idiot-proof by Micro$hit and crAPPLE . Linux is completely open source, and completely free, with people offering their coding services for free . Of course its not going to be like os x or vista or any other paid for OS . So quit comparing apples (no pun intended) with pears	Myth (110)
571252	2007-07-22 04:56:00	Nah- I'm just telling it like it is . I'm not the world's biggest fan of MSoft either and definitely not Apple . If I had my choice I would ditch Windows for Linux tomorrow and that is the reason that I have just spent a week downloading/installing/trying out different flavours of Linux . . . not to mention a few gigs of bandwidth . The fact is there is still too much wrong with Linux (or at least any of the distros I have looked at) to use in the 'real world' . I'll also say this Myth and I couldn't give a stuff if I get banned- Stick to being polite, or at least civil . You only make yourself appear childish :mad:	Shortcircuit (1666)
571253	2007-07-22 05:01:00	I'd have to agree with SJ- I tried Linux a year or 2 ago and disaster ensued :( I had another go last week just because I'm bloody-minded, downloaded MandrivaLive, it would go ok run from the CD but would not install to HD no matter what I did and what HD I did it with (bit of a waste of 900 odd mb download) . I updated Suse (which I had tried before) and it's still a dog . I've been using OpenSuSE and SLED10 both in business and at home now for about 3 or 4 years and it hasn't barked at me once ;), or got a virus, or died because of "critical updates", or not been able to do any of the things that I require of a good Desktop Business operating system . It did however come with pretty much everything I needed out of the box . So there was no need to buy a myriad of applications to produce content, to guard against Viruses and so forth . Windows, out of the box, is good for VIEWING content and not a lot else . The major Linux Distros allow you to PRODUCE high level sophistcated content, out of the box! Not one of these distros comes close to Windows XP for useability . Useability is a personal opinion thing, personally I find the the lack of multiple desktops just one of a number of limitations with Windows systems There are still wild variations in what hardware they will detect and run and the Nvidia graphics controls are still rudimentary . I also had difficulties with text clarity using an LCD monitor, just not up to scratch . That is down to NVidia's lousy drivers for Linux, but yes it is an issue, not so much with later cards even though, because they won't OpenSource their Drivers, you have to download from the NVidia site . This because NVidia's licensing doesn't allow the Distros to put the drivers on the disc/download . No big deal, they use a simple shell script . However this is an NVidia issue not a Linux one . Personally I stick with Intel or ATI, problem avoided . One of my really big grumbles with the linux install method I noticed this time is that you really do not know what you are downloading . . . it just seems to be enless mbs of crap to achieve one small 'update' . You have to remember that your Distro's update is updating ALL the software on your computer, not just the OS, hence it will possibly take a little longer . The "recent updates" that occurs during install is the same as doing ALL critical updates on all the software on your XP box at the same time, it would probably be a similar struggle . Doing anything in Linux is so convoluted that you end up feeling dizzy and have go have a cuppa and a lie down :horrified It is true that is not dumbed down like it is in Windows so there is a little more work involved, however you have to remember again you are installing ALL of your productivity software at the same time as your OS . With Windows installing the OS is just the start . Interestingly in my experience installing a base Linux Distro with all the attensant productivity software such as SLED10, is quicker than installing a bare bones XP My advice- if you have heaps of time free, you enjoy reading instructions that are (still) incomplete, love using a command line because it is the only way you can install something, That is patently incorrect . Installation tools such as Apt-Get, YUM and YOU make software installation in a linux environment easier than on windows . In YAST especially you can register software repositories and installation is a breeze, and while I'm not a Debian afficianado I believe that Apt-Get is just as good . The Windows installer method is just different . . . and we won't mention Vista here . enjoy being 'looked down upon' when asking for the answers to the 'missing links' I don't know that this was ever true, certainly not in my experience and I am certainly not a Geek, just a simple end-user . In fact most Linux people are very helpful, but without knowing a person it's very hard to know at which level to pitch any help . That can lead to misunderstanding . . . . . . and want to end up with an operating system that is never going to be as advanced as Windows or Apple (did I say that???) . . . then go for it, it can't hurt- much . :thumbs: Heh In fact the Linux desktop has scurried way past XP, is beyond Vista in a lot of areas and future developments are even more exciting . Check out Looking Glass (https://lg3d . dev . java . net/)and it will even run on windows . Whenever I show people my SLED10 they just go "WOW, Windows can't do that?" and they're surprised when you tell them that not even Vista can do it . I sooo wanted to ditch Windows too . But now well, I'm over it . :) It is in your hands . Monday mornings (except holidays) 7 am in the Auckland CBD, I'd be happy to help .	Yorick (8120)
571254	2007-07-22 05:02:00	Nah- I'm just telling it like it is. I'm not the world's biggest fan of MSoft either and definitely not Apple. If I had my choice I would ditch Windows for Linux tomorrow and that is the reason that I have just spent a week downloading/installing/trying out different flavours of Linux... not to mention a few gigs of bandwidth. The fact is there is still too much wrong with Linux (or at least any of the distros I have looked at) to use in the 'real world'. I'll also say this Myth and I couldn't give a stuff if I get banned- Stick to being polite, or at least civil. You only make yourself appear childish I was being polite Incidentally, there are a lot of linux users in auckland, many on this forum from that area. Ever considered hooking up with one of them on a free weekend and getting them to teach you how to install a (IMHO) real distro (Debian, Gentoo or maybe even Fedora)?	Myth (110)
571255	2007-07-22 05:03:00	What you and other windows users (not to mention mac zealots) tend to forget is that windows and os x have had millions of dollars thrown at them to make them more user friendly and idiot-proof by Micro$hit and crAPPLE. Windows Vista had 9 billion thrown at it and 5+ years to make it more user friendly.... and most people are still waiting. Apple does it in 1/3 of the time for a fraction of the cost. Linux is a work in progress on the smell of an oily rag.	winmacguy (3367)
571256	2007-07-22 05:05:00	Myth: I asked a few times and got really good answers from those of you who know and you know who you are too . Thanks for the help . . seriously! BUT . . somehow I muddled through the install from the LIVE cds in Mepis and Ubuntu, and just accidentally got them to run and that's where I am leaving them . . they work and I am exceedingly happy for that . . . . I never use a VM . . . I went straight for it, and Jen knows I lost a full two or three 250g hdds that way too with trying to dual-boot Mepis and XP . . Phhhht! Gone in a nanosecond! All that music and videos . I leaned humility and how to grieve too . My eyes got a little slanted too . But for the life of me I cannot really say what it was that I did that was good, right and profitable in getting them to run successfully . My Mepis server runs well, interfaces with XP, sends vids and MP3s to my home theater, which I feel is quite an accomplishment! I have my whole vid library on that server, and as of yet I have not backed things up except for the actual ownership of the original dvds and cds . (US law, that is) . I am frankly . . . AMAZED that I could stumble so blindly and get it to run . . . maybe speaking German, Yiddish, some Spanish and having programmed in COBOL and figFORTH helped a little, but I seriously don't see how . Perhaps the car and motorcycle accidents that scrambled my head also helped a little . Maybe the Sanskrit lessons finally paid off too . It was all a big crapshoot and in the end when it ran I just stopped tweaking and tuning any further . No . . I don't accuse anyone HERE of haughty attitudes in L-based systems . . not in the least! OTHER sites had the upturned snoots and they answered my questions with cold indifference . . and I got so angry . . . remember that I am in a different timezone and my days are your nights . . so I was remiss in being impatient and needing info THEN and NOW when I was all mucked up in L . There never was any slight meant toward F1 and youse guys . . . sorry if it came off that way!!! Really!!!	SurferJoe46 (51)
571257	2007-07-22 05:14:00	That sounds by far the most sensible suggestion I've heard... definitely a bonus if you can talk to other 'linux users' face to face and get SLED for free on disc. In case you're totally lost about what Yorick said- it's Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop... but that will be the least of the anacronyms that you will have to worry about :eek: Oop yes, my apologies for that and I'm usually the one ranting about acronym dropping! Hate them. Heh but that's a thing not confined to Linux, Windows people are as bad. Foe those who are unsure: SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop is the commercial version of OpenSuSE. It is Novell's Enterprise level Desktop product. The DVD's are "Evaluation" Versions. "Evaluation" in the Commercial OpenSource model means that Automatic updates are available for 3 months for free. After that you pay a subscription but if you don't, it doesn't matter, the software will still keep on working unlike closed source "trial" versions.	Yorick (8120)
571258	2007-07-22 05:18:00	Thanks Yorick- you might be surprised, but I do appreciate the offer and I hope that Aidianz takes you up on it . I must admit that I should have known what I was getting into as it's not the 1st time I looked at Linux . We also looked at changing over our desktops to Linux as we already run Linux backends . The consensus was from the IT guys 'don't do it- Linux ain't there yet' I looked at Linux this time purely from a 'what can it do compared to Windows XP/Vista' and 'how easy compared to XP/Vista' is it to use . Unfortunately for me it fell short and was just not worth the time to get it going properly . The Video issues were pretty much the last straw . I had to install Nvidia control panel stuff through the command line, but like last time all the instructions were either incorrect or incomplete and I spent days trawling (maybe trolling) around forums and wikis trying to find answers . I had heard that SLED was pretty good and maybe mistakenly thought that an updated plain old Suse would be a close runner up, but it didn't seem much more advanced than the version (10 . 1?) that I tried a year ago . I still have high hopes for 'open source' software- like OO . My end argument is that it doesn't need to be free, but it needs to be good and OO wins on both counts . Maybe one day there will be a Linux distro that I can say the same about .	Shortcircuit (1666)
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