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Thread ID: 81226 2007-07-21 00:49:00 "98, XP, Vista, Vienna+" - Help! bluesky787 (12574) Press F1
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570834 2007-07-21 00:49:00 Hello "PC" World;

Can someone here tell me what is the "intrinsic" difference between
Microsoft Windows 98 SE , XP Pro SP2 , Vista Ultimate, and the prototype that is Vienna+ ?

This may seem too simple a question, but what is the "core essential difference" between each of these OS's beyond and beneath the superficial differences that we are all accustomed too? A technical explanation would be most welcome .

One thing that forever puzzles me is this: Why did Microsoft release Windows 98 in 1998 and then just THREE years later release Windows XP in 2001 . But from Windows XP to Vista we had to wait a whole SEVEN years . And yet, now Microsoft will release Vienna only 2 years after Vista?! What is the pattern here? Why did Microsoft wait so long to come up with Vista after XP was released, but in such a hurry to release Vienna right after Vista?

Vista to XP is a HUGE jump, a jump that many are not ready or willing to make for many different reasons . One would think that by 2009 just when the general public has barely gotten adjusted and comfortable with Vista Microsoft would be out of its mind to release Vienna and basically force/PUSH everyone to upgrade again, to another so called "faster"/"better"/"more secure"/ etc OS? And thus the headache begins even before the last one cleared? Why?? Why when XP works just fine should we make the transition to Vista only just to be told once again that its obsolete and we NEED TO HAVE the latest and greatest shiny brand new OS called Vienna from M$FT?


But onto may last and real reason for this posting . . . I believe IMHO that Vista is Windows ME (Mistake Edition) II Reincarnated . . . For this reason, I would like, to the maximum extent possible, to stay with Windows XP Professional SP2 & SP3 (?) for as long as possible, perhaps until 2014 when Microsoft Officially drops all support for XP . The only way I would switch to a new MSFT OS is if in 2009 Vienna turns out to be an elegance, efficient, powerful and truly robust Operating System of the future . The way Microsoft is going I have by doubts, but if ME->XP sets an precedent, perhaps, just perhaps Vienna would be the successor to XP whilst Vista is the successor to ME .

I am hoping in 2009 Microsoft will actually WOW us with a 'perfect' OS that is Vienna . Vista is really, well lets just say I don't like it much and my opinion of it isn't going to change because of a service pack or two, especially when Vienna is already on the horizon and we all know how fast MSFT sunsets a previous version of Windows the moment the next comes out so it can Pimp it out and whore the pockets of Billy Bill Gates and Ballmer .

Until then I am sticking tightly to Windows XP Professional SP2 PERFORMANCE EDITION . But the QUESTION is how? How can this be accomplished?

Will XP still be a valid OS in 2012? What if I buy a new computer in 2010 and want to reformat with an XP OEM? Will there still be support for older XP drivers from manufacturers in 2010/2012?? If DELL/HP/etc doesn't support anything XP by then, can I build my own PC to the specs where each and every hardware component is fully compatible with XP and drivers exists for XP?? I've heard some Bios manufactures are in bed with Microsoft and some newer Motherboards will only run on Vista?!? This is bad news for me . . . Is this going to be more and more of a prevailing trend?? Is there any way around this?

To conclude, I know the XP OS will always be around, so to speak, but will it still be a generally usable OS into 2010-2015 era? Especially if I buy a new computer in 2008-2010, how practical/possible is it for me to reformat and install XP and get all the hardware and drivers working? Will most software companies such as adobe, autodesk, norton, etc drop software support of XP? (ie will all programs only be written and compatible for Vista in 2009?, or will they still have XP backwards compatibility built in?) What about games?
If I stick with XP it means I will stick to DX9 . I don't care about DX10, but my ONLY worry is it games in the future drop all support for DX9 then I won't be able to play new games at all no matter how fast my video adapter is because XP has no support for DX10 . Will this mean I must switch to Vista to play any games at all???


Someone please help enlighten me!

Thanks,

Bo 		bluesky787 (12574)
570835 2007-07-21 01:31:00 Most people will update the OS because of maybe peer presure, or keeping up with technology or the need to run some program or game that has the current OS as a minimum requirement.

We have moved from 16 bit to 32 bit to 64 bit and maybe higher by 2012.

MS No longer supports Windows 95 or Windows 98 with updates although both those OS's will still work if its all you require.

I have a client with a Windows 95 machine he got off me in 1996 and all he does on it is some documents on Word 2.0 and his accounts. Last i spoke to him he is not interested in any email or internet.

I have another with a Win98 machine that runs an early version off Office, Email, Pagemaker and some graphics program. Both these clients are in their 60's and don't need the latest and greatest to get what they need done.

By 2012 WinXP will still run what your running on it now but by then most likely MS will no longer provide updates for it. I doubt it will just stop functioning after a certain date.

MS along with both Hardware and other Software companies will keep bringing out updates and replacements simply to make more money off us.

I stuck with NT long after Win2000 came out and Win2000 long after WinXP came out and will probably stick with XP for a few more years before going with Vista. My current OS works fine for now and maybe by the time SP2 comes out for Vista it might look better.

I doubt that the "perfect OS" will ever exist on any platform. 		Bantu (52)
570836 2007-07-21 01:57:00 You ask questions that can only be answered by hardware manufactuers:
"What if I buy a new computer in 2010 and want to reformat with an XP OEM"

You ask questions that can only be answered by Microsoft:
"Why did Microsoft release Windows 98 in 1998 and then just THREE years later release Windows XP in 2001. But from Windows XP to Vista we had to wait a whole SEVEN years"

For the record, provided you knew what you were doing with ME, and that it was used rather than abused, it was fast and friendly.

What makes you assume that Windows will be the only or dominant OS in 2012 or beyond? You seem to have a narrow view of the world.

The underlying questions you ask would take more space to answer than the forum permits, and more expertise (with reference to MS source code as to the fundamental differences etc) than most forum member actually have.

But there are only two versions of Windows at a high level, Windows 9x (which includes ME) and Windows NT (which includes XP and Vista)

For what it's worth I have worked with every version of Windows since the run-time Version 1 & 2, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, through 95, 98, ME, 2000, XP, Vista.
And all DOS versions since DOS 1.0

Within that limited experience I consider that Vista is the best yet, in many areas. 		godfather (25)
570837 2007-07-21 02:00:00 Hello "PC" World;

Can someone here tell me what is the "intrinsic" difference between
Microsoft Windows 98 SE , XP Pro SP2 , Vista Ultimate, and the prototype that is Vienna+ ?

This may seem too simple a question, but what is the "core essential difference" between each of these OS's beyond and beneath the superficial differences that we are all accustomed too? A technical explanation would be most welcome .

One thing that forever puzzles me is this: Why did Microsoft release Windows 98 in 1998 and then just THREE years later release Windows XP in 2001 . But from Windows XP to Vista we had to wait a whole SEVEN years . And yet, now Microsoft will release Vienna only 2 years after Vista?! What is the pattern here? Why did Microsoft wait so long to come up with Vista after XP was released, but in such a hurry to release Vienna right after Vista?

Vista to XP is a HUGE jump, a jump that many are not ready or willing to make for many different reasons . One would think that by 2009 just when the general public has barely gotten adjusted and comfortable with Vista Microsoft would be out of its mind to release Vienna and basically force/PUSH everyone to upgrade again, to another so called "faster"/"better"/"more secure"/ etc OS? And thus the headache begins even before the last one cleared? Why?? Why when XP works just fine should we make the transition to Vista only just to be told once again that its obsolete and we NEED TO HAVE the latest and greatest shiny brand new OS called Vienna from M$FT?


But onto may last and real reason for this posting . . . I believe IMHO that Vista is Windows ME (Mistake Edition) II Reincarnated . . . For this reason, I would like, to the maximum extent possible, to stay with Windows XP Professional SP2 & SP3 (?) for as long as possible, perhaps until 2014 when Microsoft Officially drops all support for XP . The only way I would switch to a new MSFT OS is if in 2009 Vienna turns out to be an elegance, efficient, powerful and truly robust Operating System of the future . The way Microsoft is going I have by doubts, but if ME->XP sets an precedent, perhaps, just perhaps Vienna would be the successor to XP whilst Vista is the successor to ME .

I am hoping in 2009 Microsoft will actually WOW us with a 'perfect' OS that is Vienna . Vista is really, well lets just say I don't like it much and my opinion of it isn't going to change because of a service pack or two, especially when Vienna is already on the horizon and we all know how fast MSFT sunsets a previous version of Windows the moment the next comes out so it can Pimp it out and whore the pockets of Billy Bill Gates and Ballmer .

Until then I am sticking tightly to Windows XP Professional SP2 PERFORMANCE EDITION . But the QUESTION is how? How can this be accomplished?

Will XP still be a valid OS in 2012? What if I buy a new computer in 2010 and want to reformat with an XP OEM? Will there still be support for older XP drivers from manufacturers in 2010/2012?? If DELL/HP/etc doesn't support anything XP by then, can I build my own PC to the specs where each and every hardware component is fully compatible with XP and drivers exists for XP?? I've heard some Bios manufactures are in bed with Microsoft and some newer Motherboards will only run on Vista?!? This is bad news for me . . . Is this going to be more and more of a prevailing trend?? Is there any way around this?

To conclude, I know the XP OS will always be around, so to speak, but will it still be a generally usable OS into 2010-2015 era? Especially if I buy a new computer in 2008-2010, how practical/possible is it for me to reformat and install XP and get all the hardware and drivers working? Will most software companies such as adobe, autodesk, norton, etc drop software support of XP? (ie will all programs only be written and compatible for Vista in 2009?, or will they still have XP backwards compatibility built in?) What about games?
If I stick with XP it means I will stick to DX9 . I don't care about DX10, but my ONLY worry is it games in the future drop all support for DX9 then I won't be able to play new games at all no matter how fast my video adapter is because XP has no support for DX10 . Will this mean I must switch to Vista to play any games at all???


Someone please help enlighten me!

Thanks,

Bo


You ask questions that can only be answered by hardware manufactuers:
"What if I buy a new computer in 2010 and want to reformat with an XP OEM"

You ask questions that can only be answered by Microsoft:
"Why did Microsoft release Windows 98 in 1998 and then just THREE years later release Windows XP in 2001 . But from Windows XP to Vista we had to wait a whole SEVEN years"

For the record, provided you knew what you were doing with ME, and that it was used rather than abused, it was fast and friendly .

What makes you assume that Windows will be the only or dominant OS in 2012 or beyond? You seem to have a narrow view of the world .

The underlying questions you ask would take more space to answer than the forum permits, and more expertise (with reference to MS source code as to the fundamental differences etc) than most forum member actually have .

But there are only two versions of Windows at a high level, Windows 9x (which includes ME) and Windows NT (which includes XP and Vista)

For what it's worth I have worked with every version of Windows since the run-time Version 1 & 2, 3 . 0, 3 . 1, 3 . 11, through 95, 98, ME, 2000, XP, Vista .
And all DOS versions since DOS 1 . 0

Within that limited experience I consider that Vista is the best yet, in many areas .

I did some online reading about Windows Vienna and found this:

In the past 20 years, the Microsoft Windows operating system has accumulated old code libraries that brought it to the size it has today, 2 . 5 GB and about 50 million lines of code (Windows Vista) . These old code libraries consume resources and are often the targets of security exploits . The best way to avoid such problems, is to start from scratch, which is close to what Microsoft plans to do with Windows Vienna . Windows Vienna will represent the start of a different generation of operating systems, bringing in new concepts and support for new types of hardware, along with a better security and a modular approach, which will allow future versions of Windows to be built more easily on Windows Vienna's engine . It is also likely that the future success of Microsoft's products will be strongly decided by the success of the new generation operating system .


"Microsoft has announced it will be released in 2009, it has been publicly stated that the team that designed the Ribbon interface for Microsoft Office 2007 will play an active part in redesigning Windows Explorer and possibly other UI elements . In that sense, we can expect that the user interface paradigms will change significantly . Perhaps, even, the powerful organizational capability of the Ribbon interface will permit Windows to adopt significant new functionality . "

"We're going to look at a fundamental piece of enabling technology . Maybe it's hypervisors . I don't know what it is" [ . . . ] "Maybe it's a new user interface paradigm for consumers . "

"That means that right now when you move from one PC to another, you've got to install apps on each one, do upgrades on each one . Moving information between them is very painful . We can use Live Services to know what you're interested in . So even if you drop by a [public] kiosk or somebody else's PC, we can bring down your home page, your files, your fonts, your favorites and those things . So that's kind of the user-centric thing that Live Services can enable . [Also,] in Vista, things got a lot better with [digital] ink and speech, but by the next release there will be a much bigger bet . Students won't need textbooks; they can just use these tablet devices . Parallel computing is pretty important for the next release . We'll make it so that a lot of the high-level graphics will be just built into the operating system . So we've got a pretty good outline . ""


It's about time Microsoft cleared the board and started from scratch . I hope Vienna becomes as perfect of an OS as possible, but I dread the OS being tied intricately with Microsoft LIVE Services . . . . . No offense, but I don't want my life to be intertwined with Microsoft, I just want an Operating System that does its job, that works without me needing to babysite it and feed it's UAC "yes, I'm sure" confirmations every five seconds . The whole point of an OS is to be as invisible as possible, like air is critical to our survival but we never notice it, until its gone . The same way, the zen of operating system is that it does everything in the background, transparent, clean, invisible . Vista is anything but . . . .


I'm also not to sure about the RIBBON interface . I hope a more intuitive interface is incorporated in Vienna . I have used Office 2007 and gotten around to learning the Ribbon interface and truth be told I don't think its that great . It's not that efficient or effective and it really doesn't save me much if any time at all . What is so wrong with the classical menu interface and the proven way of doing things? Why change everything around when it was working fine? I really don't get it, the ribbon interface isn't saving me any time or making my Office Experience any more enjoyable .


Bill Gates comment really make me wonder what world he is living in:

"Students won't need textbooks; they can just use these tablet devices . "

And why would be need Vienna to accomplish this? Tablet Devices have existed forever,
I don't see how Vienna will change their adoption to high schools and colleges . Somehow I don't see textbooks being replaced by Tablet PC's anytime soon . Even if it did happen, XP would have done the job . No need for Vista or Vienna to do that . . . 		bluesky787 (12574)
570838 2007-07-21 02:23:00 Can someone here tell me what is the "intrinsic" difference between
Microsoft Windows 98 SE , XP Pro SP2 , Vista Ultimate, and the prototype that is Vienna+ ?

And yet, now Microsoft will release Vienna only 2 years after Vista?!

I believe IMHO that Vista is Windows ME (Mistake Edition) II Reincarnated . . .

Until then I am sticking tightly to Windows XP Professional SP2 PERFORMANCE EDITION . But the QUESTION is how? How can this be accomplished?


Essentially the answer is : BLOAT

Because Vista is rumoured to be the next ME .

So do lots of others .

Simple . Leav it installed . What kind of question is that?

I see heaps of PCs round here running Win98, they haven't the need for a new PC, sothey don't .

The only reason you need, as opposed to Microsoft wanting you to, upgrade to a new O/S is hardware firstly, and software second .

I had Win98 until I installed a motherboard that had no drivers at all for 98, so I moved to XP finally .

Or if you want some particular apps .

Its almost impossible to get anti-malware programs for Win95 now, Google Earth does not work with Win98, that sort of thing .

Whether MS "supports" it or not is completely and utterly irrelevant in my opinion . I couldn't care less . 		pctek (84)
570839 2007-07-21 03:00:00 Hi Bluesky,

It goes like this.

You buy a computer some time back. It was a Sega sc3000and you could play games on it. So you decide to upgrade the tape drive so you do not have to wind through the tape to get to the game you wrote. Geee. A floppy drive and you can save. Random access. WOW!!

Later you realise that the Sega will not cut it. So you sell the SEGA and buy a Sinclair or a Commodore or whatever. Personally I bought a PC20 which was IBM compatible.

Then you sell the PC20 and get a 4.77 MHz CPU with 2 megs RAM and deal with autoexec.bat and config.sys files under MSDOS. This before Windows came on the market.

I used to have fun editing configuration files from MSDOS 3.3 up to 6.23. That was when MSFlightSim version 1 came on one floppy disk. 		Sweep (90)
570840 2007-07-21 03:07:00 "And Vista to XP is a huge jump"? I take it you believe this? Sweep (90)
570841 2007-07-21 03:17:00 I did some online reading about Windows Vienna and found this:

In the past 20 years, the Microsoft Windows operating system has accumulated old code libraries that brought it to the size it has today, 2.5 GB and about 50 million lines of code (Windows Vista). These old code libraries consume resources and are often the targets of security exploits. The best way to avoid such problems, is to start from scratch, which is close to what Microsoft plans to do with Windows Vienna. Windows Vienna will represent the start of a different generation of operating systems, bringing in new concepts and support for new types of hardware, along with a better security and a modular approach, which will allow future versions of Windows to be built more easily on Windows Vienna's engine.It is also likely that the future success of Microsoft's products will be strongly decided by the success of the new generation operating system.


"Microsoft has announced it will be released in 2009, it has been publicly stated that the team that designed the Ribbon interface for Microsoft Office 2007 will play an active part in redesigning Windows Explorer and possibly other UI elements. In that sense, we can expect that the user interface paradigms will change significantly. Perhaps, even, the powerful organizational capability of the Ribbon interface will permit Windows to adopt significant new functionality."

"We're going to look at a fundamental piece of enabling technology. Maybe it's hypervisors. I don't know what it is" [...] "Maybe it's a new user interface paradigm for consumers."

"That means that right now when you move from one PC to another, you've got to install apps on each one, do upgrades on each one. Moving information between them is very painful. We can use Live Services to know what you're interested in. So even if you drop by a [public] kiosk or somebody else's PC, we can bring down your home page, your files, your fonts, your favorites and those things. So that's kind of the user-centric thing that Live Services can enable. [Also,] in Vista, things got a lot better with [digital] ink and speech, but by the next release there will be a much bigger bet. Students won't need textbooks; they can just use these tablet devices. Parallel computing is pretty important for the next release. We'll make it so that a lot of the high-level graphics will be just built into the operating system. So we've got a pretty good outline.""


It's about time Microsoft cleared the board and started from scratch. I hope Vienna becomes as perfect of an OS as possible, but I dread the OS being tied intricately with Microsoft LIVE Services..... No offense, but I don't want my life to be intertwined with Microsoft, I just want an Operating System that does its job, that works without me needing to babysite it and feed it's UAC "yes, I'm sure" confirmations every five seconds. The whole point of an OS is to be as invisible as possible, like air is critical to our survival but we never notice it, until its gone. The same way, the zen of operating system is that it does everything in the background, transparent, clean, invisible. Vista is anything but....


I'm also not to sure about the RIBBON interface. I hope a more intuitive interface is incorporated in Vienna. I have used Office 2007 and gotten around to learning the Ribbon interface and truth be told I don't think its that great. It's not that efficient or effective and it really doesn't save me much if any time at all. What is so wrong with the classical menu interface and the proven way of doing things? Why change everything around when it was working fine? I really don't get it, the ribbon interface isn't saving me any time or making my Office Experience any more enjoyable.


Bill Gates comment really make me wonder what world he is living in:

" Students won't need textbooks; they can just use these tablet devices. "

And why would be need Vienna to accomplish this? Tablet Devices have existed forever,
I don't see how Vienna will change their adoption to high schools and colleges. Somehow I don't see textbooks being replaced by Tablet PC's anytime soon. Even if it did happen, XP would have done the job. No need for Vista or Vienna to do that...

Tablet devices have exited in the past as well. Take the ten commandments for example. Written in stone and no operating system needed. 		Sweep (90)
570842 2007-07-21 05:43:00 For all his vision Bill G failed to see the significance that the internet would play in our lives.
The 2 biggest parts of visionary bit of thinking that Bill G had was that you could create a software company that didn't make hardware
The second bit was to license the Windows OS to partners and in doing so enable Windows to invade our businesses and homes by way of affordable computers.
The 3rd dodgier bit was to create an illegal monopoly in Windows.
That is about where Bill G's vision ends contrary to popular belief.
The Tablet PC concept was introduced by Bill some years ago...... and while being a great concept, has failed to gain mass market acceptance possibly because it still needs refining before it takes off.
As for Windows Vista aka ME II - 40 million units shipped since Feb 2007....most companies are taking a wait and see approach judging by Microsoft's just released sales figures.
Many customers are more than happy with Windows XP possibly because they have had 5 long years to become familiar with it. Most people hate learning new OS's at work.
As for Vienna... will it be fantastic?
will it WOW you like Vista has? (bearing in mind that the WOW factor in Vista took just over 5 years to create....) then yes it probably will.
If not then I doubt it. 		winmacguy (3367)
570843 2007-07-21 06:00:00 For all his vision Bill G failed to see the significance that the internet would play in our lives.You think so?

Quote:
"Today, you always know whether you are on the Internet or on your PC's hard drive. Tomorrow, you will not care and may not even know." -- Bill Gates 		Jen (38)
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