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Thread ID: 53967	2005-02-01 03:57:00	Hooray for Democracy in Iraq!	vinref (6194)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
320256	2005-02-02 06:03:00	Also, the US should not have been surprised by the Japanese attack for other reasons. They had put the screws on Japanese trade and raw materials, IIRC. So, everything added up, the rest is history. As a result, we now have think tanks and analysts, an abused idea if ever there was one.	Murray P (44)
320257	2005-02-02 06:07:00	so......By this logic a country has the god given right to wage war on a country on the other side of the planet for the reason that they think their way is better. Can we flip the coin and apply it from the other side then? Which would make 9/11 justifiable simply because those on the other side of the world have the right to kill anyone they see fit just because they don't like the way things are done elsewhere? Whats next? Yanks invade every country in the world not to their liking and set up a govenment sympethetic to their wants? Watch out Korea,Iran and every other country that has a thousand year history that doesn't fit the mold of the American view, There will be blood flowing on the streets. God Bless America. Bringing them Warfare whether they asked for it or not.	Metla (12)
320258	2005-02-02 06:07:00	It all comes down to money. In the end, it may have been cheaper to go to war in Iraq than spend money dealing with the consequences of not. Ok - but Iraq was actually a much safer place before the invasion. It was only after the invasion (or news of an imminent invasion) that they started to flood out of Iraq. Although I can't blame them for wanting to escape, I don't see why we should be under any obligation to take people from other countries, unless of course we are responsible for the instability in those countries. By trying to fix their political systems we end up creating an awful lot more problems for ourselves. And suppose a stable democracy is restored in Iraq. I can hardly see all the expat Iraqis rushing back to go and live over there. It would have been a hell of alot cheaper, in terms of both money and loss of life, if we had tolerated their political system instead of trying to fix it. My question is why Iraq? Why not North Korea? Surely they are a far more imminent threat in terms of firepower that may kill millions. Now if we'd gone into North Korea and routed out the terrorists in Afghanistan (if they were ever there in the first place) then perhaps I can see the justification in spending all that money. But Iraq is hardly an investment....unless of course the whole thing was about oil.	manicminer (4219)
320259	2005-02-02 06:33:00	so......By this logic a country has the god given right to wage war on a country on the other side of the planet for the reason that they think their way is better. No. No gods are involved, just the reasonable conviction that most people do not want to be murdered, raped, tortured, expelled, dispossessed or similarly treated; and that most people would want to be freed from this type of treatment. Iraq is a good example of this, because despite provocation the promised civil war has not materialised, and around 8 million people voted. Which would make 9/11 justifiable simply because those on the other side of the world have the right to kill anyone they see fit just because they don't like the way things are done elsewhere? And what do you suppose is the way that these terrorists would like things done? Have a think about it, and then you would see the drastic difference between their way, and democracy. These things are not arbitrary. Whats next? Yanks invade every country in the world not to their liking and set up a govenment sympethetic to their wants? Watch out Korea,Iran and every other country that has a thousand year history that doesn't fit the mold of the American view, There will be blood flowing on the streets. God Bless America. Bringing them Warfare whether they asked for it or not. Hyperbole aside, no. God bless America, because if they weren't doing all the spendin' and dyin', we would all be in serious trouble.	vinref (6194)
320260	2005-02-02 06:42:00	No gods are involved? Both sides are deeply religious, George Bush is as strong in his religious views as any terriost . Both believe their god is on their side . Gods are involved, Whether they are an imaginary force or not makes little difference . As for the yanks and their good work? They have blood on their hands, More then Sadaum ever did, and when they weren't directly killing they were helping others to kill . >>And what do you suppose is the way that these terrorists would like things done? Have a think about it, and then you would see the drastic difference between their way, and democracy . These things are not arbitrary . Killing is killing,dead is dead, attacking another country is attacking another country . They all believe they are in the right . Lets just hope the yanks don't get fed up with our anti-nukes policy and decide to liberate us and then mold us in their image .	Metla (12)
320261	2005-02-02 07:21:00	I think the yanks are doing the right thing,you don't,is there an argument that would convince you otherwise?.I doubt it. Seems to me you just have to take sides and see who is right in the end. Huge and complex question.	Cicero (40)
320262	2005-02-02 07:41:00	Both sides are deeply religious, George Bush is as strong in his religious views as any terriost. Neither is as religious as they would like you to think, power and other agendas are more influential. Both rely, to a certain extent, on the support and/or endorcement of religious groups. For the people at the coal face, it could be entirely different, as it ever is. Why hasn't North Korea got the wack, up to this point? Atoms and their nature under certain conditions.	Murray P (44)
320263	2005-02-02 08:22:00	Think I'll dip my toe in and have 2 cents worth. I'm with both Metla and Murray on this. Anyone who thinks the US invaded Iraq to bring western style democracy to the country is living in a dream world, or else is completely taken in by Bush propganda. Sadam and the US were big buddies when Iraq was having a go at Iran. The US supplied him with all the wherewithall to fight Iraq and manufacture WMD. Western firms cashed in and sold him all sorts of weaponry. They could have taken him out and established democracy during the Gulf War, but it suited American interests at that time to leave him there. The US and the Taleban were big buddies, with the Taleban trained and equipped by the US, whilst the Russians were in Afghanistan. Does anyone think the US would have participated in the Eurpean war to defeat Hitler if Japan had never attacked at Pearl Harbour? The US, like any other country, has been and is, driven purely by self interest, but they like to dress up their actions with hypocritic sanctimonious waffle which so many people seem happy to swallow. Perhaps they should try to bring democracy to Saudi Arabia, or is the fear of loss of oil too big a price to pay? Now turning to the French :). They had their Exocet missile engineers working flat out in Argentina at the eleventh hour to get them operational in time for the Falklands/Malvinas war. Supposed to be Britains ally, hundreds of Brits killed by Exocets. Governements of all sorts are not to be trusted.	Terry Porritt (14)
320264	2005-02-02 08:55:00	This is fun . A bit like bear-baiting but without any bears suffering . :thumbs: So . Teddy Roosevelt knew of the planned attack on Pearl Harbour 2 years before it happened . But he had to let it occur because of Isolationist attitudes and policies within American politics (eg Joe Kennedy who was pro-Hitler) in order to galvanise the people . Believe me, those attitudes still exist today and many Americans would be happy to shut the doors (at least militarily, diplomatically, and aid) on the rest of the world . As to this myth that Americans selfishly use soldiers only when there is oil or wealth involved: check these places out - Somalia, Kenya, Lebanon, Bosnia . Lots of dead GIs . The most interesting and remarkable thing about the Iraq election is the large voter turnout . People should have been afraid, or if you believe the limpwristed media, uninterested because they thought it was an American jackup . Instead they voted in their millions . And where is the civil war promised by the fiery immams? A damp squib . Historically Iraq was relatively secular and peaceful . There is a fair chance that state of affairs can be regained . Not tomorrow but maybe in the next 10 years . Speaking of Dictators - anyone see Helen Clarke's speech? Too smug by far .	Winston001 (3612)
320265	2005-02-02 09:13:00	Think I'll dip my toe in and have 2 cents worth. I'm with both Metla and Murray on this. Anyone who thinks the US invaded Iraq to bring western style democracy to the country is living in a dream world, or else is completely taken in by Bush propganda. Governements of all sorts are not to be trusted. And I'm with Terry on this one too. I certainly don't trust either the American or the British Government. I watched a BBC documentary recently called the "Power of Nightmares". It's a 3 part series. I don't think it's been shown yet in NZ but you can download it off the net. I got it off UKnova.com and I know alot of Americans were grateful for being able to watch this. There is a bittorrent link here: www.informationclearinghouse.info Whatever your views on this thread, I thoroughly recommend watching this documentary. Cheers.	manicminer (4219)
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