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Thread ID: 53967	2005-02-01 03:57:00	Hooray for Democracy in Iraq!	vinref (6194)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
320316	2005-02-07 05:37:00	You are dead right in saying that Humans have "benefited" from forming cohesive societies. Yet it is because of this forming of cohesive societies that the world is in such poor shape. Without societies there would be no leaders of society vying for world domination. Which is really why I posted my first thread. "Hooray for Democracy in Iraq" whiptedo, thanks to Americas 'Struggle for Freedom' countless people have died 'for the greater good'. Really is a whole load of horses*&t if you ask me. It comes down to the basics of "Mind your own business", why interfer with something that has nothing to do with you? Aimed at U.S, not posters! My little ***** for the day! Should be careful though, god knows how far their dirty little hands have spread, maybe their Patriot Act includes NZ? Peace out, Veale The answer is to vote for ACT......rodneyhide.com	Cicero (40)
320317	2005-02-07 18:27:00	I'm not quite sure what is "terribly" wrong Steve. Invasion sounds terrible of course unless you view it as rescue. Which is a valid alternative view. And the way the US treats the people? Hamfistedly maybe, insensitively perhaps, but fairly overall. Bearing in mind that at any moment for a US or Iraqui soldier, he may be attacked by bullet or bomb. The treatment of Westerners at the hands of insurgents in various Islamic countries, by comparison, is barbaric. Beheadings on video, terrified pleading by victims shortly before execution. Lovely stuff. The so-called atrocities at Al Gharib prison (which appalled me) were boarding school bullying by comparison. It seems to me there were three drivers for the invasion of Iraq: 1. The collective need of the American people to avenge the 9/11 tragedy. This single event woke a slumbering lion. Afghanistan was too easy and too unfocused to be enough revenge. Saddam was highly visible and loved giving the fingers to the Yanks. 2. An honest belief that Saddam had serious weapons which he would use against the Kurds, Saudi, and Israel. Furthermore he would disrupt a significant part of the worlds oil supplies. 3. Personal. Saddam tried to assasinate President George Bush about 1991. His son has never forgotten this and it was enough to tip him into taking action. Hello Winston, (egads, you are not a politician from Tauranga I hope! :annoyed: ) Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Your three 'drivers' for the invasion are, imho, quite true. Both sides - the Iraqi (terrorists) and the Americans - treat each other 'terribly'. Beheadings and other terrorist attacks are easy to see as "terrible". And for the USA....well, my perception is based on news reports, especially those from the Iraqi people themselves. There is a deep hatred of America, due to several main reasons of which Palestine-Israel is but one. Then there are analyses from the likes of Noam Chomsky, and the Abu Grahib Prison malady. But I am not a USA-hater. American troops have helped many Iraqis (Kiwi soldiers as well !). I want to believe that most soldiers of the occupying forces treat Iraqis with respect (unless getting shot at! :angry ). It is a complex issue, for sure. The problems or solutions cannot be simply black and white. :2cents:	Strommer (42)
320318	2005-02-08 06:58:00	Great post Terry . I agree and I'd never thought of assuming the inherent badness of man as a starting point . However I'd characterise it as selfishness rather than good nor bad . This fundamental element of our nature makes us competitive and strive to survive, to better our lives . That is the reason I eventually abandoned my rosy socialist views . Leftist politics absolutely assumes inherent good in all people and that those people will willingly work for their neighbour, rather than themselves . It is a fine concept but humans simply haven't evolved to that point . And Steve, I agree with you too . One problem I suspect with American soldiers is that they are not educated about other peoples of the world . They go to Iraq thinking of "towellheads" etc and look down on those they are supposed to protect . No respect . No suprise then that some Iraquis are disillusioned . I'm minded of this because I was speaking to a police officer yesterday who had been peacekeeping in the Solomon Islands . He said all the Kiwis treated the locals with respect and got on very well . By contrast the Australian police were openly prejudiced and simply there to deal with some blacks . Consequently they were unpopular and had problems .	Winston001 (3612)
320319	2005-02-08 11:11:00	This has turned into a fascinating thread for those interested in both international affairs & the essentials of what it means to be a thinking human being. I'm contributing nothing, sadly. Time constraints anyway - and then got flooded indoors last night in Dunedin's drainage challenge for extraordinary downpours. But while I keep cleaning the silt, I'm watching this with interest. So keep it up guys. Democracy's always been interesting. Here we've always taken it for granted. In my childhood, the Cold War reigned against the dreaded Communism. ( Much later as a political reporter, I remember when it was even delicate for an MP to call himself a socialist ) And in spite of the illumination we've had in recent years about other systems, most of us are still pretty ignorant about the Muslim faith. My first impression of that as a woman was all bad. I'm still happy I'm not one, but have learned from intelligent & educated female Muslims that there are not only compensations for what we would consider restrictions, but there were also few of these in the original faith. - merely ones imposed more recently in certain countries by certain leaders for their own ends. I hold no brief for Saddam Hussein - tyrant, bully & criminal. But he did run a secular system where education was more important than in most other Arab countries & it produced a wealth of female graduates in many specialties. We don't see many of those women on our TV screens nowadays. Many have left for the West, of course. I have great sympathy for those who've stayed & may now have to deal with a religion-based system which gives them no credit for their expertise. Again, it may not turn out that way, depending on the real elections - that is, the ones that happen after the Americans have left. Only then will we know what the Iraqui people want. (Well, that started off as a few lines in between my next change of towels/old newspapers for blotting on the carpets. It seems to have stretched. I did say it was a fascinating subject. Back to the carpets...)	Laura (43)
320320	2005-02-08 19:58:00	I suspect with American soldiers is that they are not educated about other peoples of the world. They go to Iraq thinking of "towellheads" etc and look down on those they are supposed to protect. No respect. No suprise then that some Iraquis are disillusioned. I'm minded of this because I was speaking to a police officer yesterday who had been peacekeeping in the Solomon Islands. He said all the Kiwis treated the locals with respect and got on very well. By contrast the Australian police were openly prejudiced and simply there to deal with some blacks. Consequently they were unpopular and had problems. Winston, I will go further and say that having lived in the USA, it is not just the soldiers who are ignorant of other cultures, but the general population as well - even many 'educated' people. Most Americans remain insular as they live in a world where America is the centre of the universe, all important, all powerful. Obviously there are many exceptions to this generalisation; I suspect many of the anti-Bush voters had different views to such provincial, ignorant perceptions of other cultures. I have lived in Australia, and visit there from time to time, so I do not find your 'Solomon Island / police' comments surprising. By contrast, NZ is a small nation in the middle of a big ocean, and many Kiwis place the Big OE as a priority. Ahhh, what a world it would be if Kiwis 'ruled the world'. :D	Strommer (42)
320321	2005-02-08 20:54:00	It comes down to the basics of "Mind your own business", why interfer with something that has nothing to do with you? Aimed at U . S, not posters! Good questions Veale . Vin dealt with these issues above . Tell me - if the people next door are bashing their children, do you say its none of your business? Some people would ignore this - but that doesn't help the kids . If possible, most people would tell the police and CYPS would act to protect the children . In the same way, nations act to prevent bullies from repressing people or taking land . Eg . Kuwait and Kosovo . Sometimes this means war because the bullies are strong and won't give up . Just as the police need to occasionally raid gang headquarters in order to keep our streets safe . I share your frustration with government . But bureaucracy is an inevitable consequence of open democracy . It exists to protect all members in a society, giving each of them a chance to have their say . Eg Parliamentary Select Committees, Commissions of Enquiry, Ombudsmen, Health and Disability Commissioners, surveys, reports and more reports . The result is a system which moves very slowly, and inefficently . For efficency see = Dictatorship or Oligarchy .	Winston001 (3612)
320322	2005-02-08 21:21:00	Forgive me this, but I am about to twist it around again. You made reference to the neighbors beating his kids. In Iraq America sponsored the war against Iran with money, supplies, guns, ammo, heavy guns, Satellite feed, etc etc, This would be like me heading next door to give my neighbor a pep talk about the benefits of bashing his kids, then slipping him a $50 and a heavy whacking stick to get the job done. Then later on if the Neighbor decided to whack his other kid, I could make up lies about him carrying a gun, Suddenly discover that the world was not a safe place with his household policies and that I couldn't sleep at night knowing that such evil exists. So I head over and shoot him in the head,and half his extended family for good measure.Women,children,whomever is in the way.The cause is right afterall, They will be free...well,those that live will be,....well,they will be free after they battle each other for the right to lead...... Afterwards I could congratulate myself for my glorious humanity. Im sure a judge would see my logic as well.	Metla (12)
320323	2005-02-08 23:24:00	This would be like me heading next door to give my neighbor a pep talk about the benefits of bashing his kids, then slipping him a $50 and a heavy whacking stick to get the job done . Only if the kids insisted on supporting the Auckland Blues . ;) Fair points Metla . Yes, the Americans are clumsy and pick some real losers as favoured allies . Like President Emomali RAHMONOV of Tajikistan, because the US needs airbases close to Afghanistan . Allies are different to friends . They are people you seek common cause with against a greater threat . That doesn't prevent diplomatic moves behind the scenes to persuade a repugnant ally to mend their ways . It is happening now with Saudi Arabia which is no democracy . Persuasion and diplomacy - as anyone who has ever tried concensus decision making knows, takes a long time . Sometimes it fails . Communist Russia was an ally in World War 2 despite being led by a man almost equal to Hitler in brutality . Politics makes strange bedfellows .	Winston001 (3612)
320324	2005-02-09 01:04:00	Communist Russia was an ally in World War 2 despite being led by a man almost equal to Hitler in brutality. Politics makes strange bedfellows. "Almost" wasn't he a far better practitioner than her Hitler? at least when it came to the home patch.	Murray P (44)
320325	2005-02-09 03:05:00	[QUOTE=Winston001]Good questions Veale. Vin dealt with these issues above. Tell me - if the people next door are bashing their children, do you say its none of your business? Some people would ignore this - but that doesn't help the kids. If possible, most people would tell the police and CYPS would act to protect the children. In the same way, nations act to prevent bullies from repressing people or taking land. Eg. Kuwait and Kosovo. Sometimes this means war because the bullies are strong and won't give up. Just as the police need to occasionally raid gang headquarters in order to keep our streets safe. QUOTE] Fair Point Winston, the only difference being that in the case of kid bashing, you would act out of sympathy for the child as opposed to acting for your own pleasure. In Americas case they merely acted for their own profit (add to that the fact that America just loves a good fight, especially when the odds are entirely in their favour!) Another thing slightly related, how much of a nazi is Condeleeza Rice! :groan:	Veale (536)
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