Forum Home
PC World Chat
Thread ID: 59571	2005-07-06 07:42:00	I don't understand what's going on in Israel, can you explain to me?	Renmoo (66)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
369888	2005-07-07 03:48:00	http://www.debka.com/ This is a good link for what is happening there militarily and politically, they have had heaps of scoops on the Iraq war as well. Lots of "behind the scenes" articles.	netchicken (4843)
369889	2005-07-08 05:10:00	This is a colonial vs. resident dispute, befogged by news positioning, especially that Israel is peaceable while the Palestinians are terrorists. In the last few years, hundreds of Israelis have been killed, but, five times as many Palestinians have been killed, an improvement on the preceding intifada where the ratio was ten to one. Yet the standard recital has people parroting the line that Israel made unprecedentedly generous concessions that were so unreasonably rejected by Yassir Arafat. These demands were that the Palestinians should abandon 78% of the Palestine that had been almost entirely theirs prior to the Zionist colonisation and content themselves with the West Bank and Gaza, nor would they have any standing in Old Jerusalem. As for the right of return of Palestinian refugees who had fled from war, and terror as organised by Irgun and others; forget it, though Israel continues to encourage immigration by persons whose most recent ancestral link is not decades old but centuries even millenia, calling it the Right of Return. This is desperately important for Israeli demographics. And the settlements, some even by Israeli law illegal, occupying some 60% of the 22% remnant, slicing it into fragments more useless than the ludicrous Bantustans of apartheid? They are to stay, even expand if the fanatics have their way, for God has given it all to them. Many of us have a copy of the title deed at home: see Genesis chapter 17 verse 8 for example. Alas for peace, even then the land was already occupied, by such as the Philistines, as it was in our time by the Palestinians, who ask why they should be evicted because of what Europeans did to other Europeans in Europe. But they are helpless before Israel's military strength, much helped by the $5,000,000,000/year in aid from the USA, justified by the assertion that Israel is a valuable ally. Yet you should not imagine that Israel and the USA are "shoulder to shoulder", nor even that Israel is grateful; Israel looks to its own interests and has bitten the ankles it stands by many times, in espionage against the USA, even attacking the USS Liberty with torpedos, napalm and machinegun: accidentally of course, so the thirty-four killed may rest in peace, nor need the wounded complain. The retreat from Gaza (if it happens: not at all certain) is accompanied by further consolidation of Israeli control in the West Bank. It is not much of an act of peace and sweet reason, more an abandonment of a difficult holding as a cover for other gains. Oh, and if I seem a little less pro-Israel than the usual, spare me cries of "Anti-Semite!": the Arabs are Semites too. This is a family squabble; the worst.	Nicky (112)
369890	2005-07-08 07:17:00	.............. I need to process the information................(Currently in processing)	Renmoo (66)
369891	2005-07-08 09:47:00	And there you have it James . Nicky has a point of view virtually the complete opposite to mine . Thus the debate rages on and people continue to die . As for the media, they are very biased in favour the Palestinians . The liberal view of the press is that the Palestinians are an oppressed minority up against the big bad Israelis . Specifically there were a series of items by Cameron Bennet on 60 Minutes last year in this vein . Alas for peace, even then the land was already occupied, by such as the Philistines, as it was in our time by the Palestinians, who ask why they should be evicted because of what Europeans did to other Europeans in Europe . A fair question and one which the UN should address . But the immigrating Jews purchased land or took it as spoils of war after the 1948 bloodbath when the other Arab nations tried to annihilate Israel . They paid for it with blood - hard to see why they should or would ever give it up .	Winston001 (3612)
369892	2005-07-08 09:55:00	Sorry NIcky, but would it make it fairer for you if there were equal numbers of deaths on both sides, instead of more on one than the other? What if more Israelis died than Palastinians? Would that then be considered "good"? Numbers and percentages are meaningless to invoke them as a form of justification or "rightness" is wrong . Neither is the argument of sticks and stones against tanks . Would it be better for you if everyone just had the same level of equipment? Does that make the issue "fairer" . These are simplistic media inflicted viewpoints, where complex issues are reduced to data to try and find who is "right" . Also to expect Israel to return to the indefensable position of 1948 is also misguided . That land gained in those battles were won fair and square . The arabs lost . Shall the same demands be invoked for all minority groups who have an issue with another over territory? Get ready to move then if you live in the King country then . History records that the Arabs in the region were only waiting for the British (who not suprisingly are the instigators of much of the trouble in the world in their colonial policies) to leave before making war to "drive the jews into the sea", as the Egyptian general stated, and has been repeated by arafat in recent years . Every war Israel has fought has been a war for survival, they deserve better than to be protrayed as the aggressors and monsters in the media . This is a complex issue that is best addressed by reading some history on the subject to put it into context . Otherwise the reader is at the mercy of the arguments of those who push their own agendas .	netchicken (4843)
369893	2005-07-08 10:28:00	I still say that this forum is not really the place for this topic as views can be so polarised, either pro Arab or pro Israeli, so I will have two penny worth :) Even reading history as netchicken suggests will not resolve anything as the "facts" will be interpreted in different ways, or, people will take what supports their view and ignore what doesn't . Now my own views on all this have been pro-Arab for the last 30 odd years, I used to be strongly pro-Israeli . Talk of the media being on one side or the other doesn't mean a lot, the media swings . For years western media was pro Israeli mistakenly (in my opinion) portraying them as the defenceless underdog . Now there is a change towards an irritation with Israel and their occupational policies . A "fact" not yet mentioned in these posts, unless I've overlooked it, is the Jewish belief that their god promised them their land, and so, even after 2000 years, it belongs to them by god given right . This is at the root of the problem .	Terry Porritt (14)
369894	2005-07-08 11:25:00	How far back should one go Terry? You mentioned 2000 years but the Israelites were not the first people to settle that area. What about the Canaanites who were conquered by the Israelites in about 1250BC? What claim should they have to the area? That whole area has been conquered and reconquered so many times that there is hardly a civilisation that couldn't lay claim to a part of that area.	andrew93 (249)
369895	2005-07-08 21:11:00	How far back should one go Terry? You mentioned 2000 years but the Israelites were not the first people to settle that area. What about the Canaanites who were conquered by the Israelites in about 1250BC? What claim should they have to the area? That whole area has been conquered and reconquered so many times that there is hardly a civilisation that couldn't lay claim to a part of that area. Right Andrew, I'm just saying what I understand the Jews to believe, that they held the belief for 2000 years following the Diaspora, that their god had given them that land, and that they would return. I mention 2000 years ago because that was when the Jews were driven out by the Romans, or many of them anyway. They could have returned from around 300/400AD as the Roman Empire crumbled. The Romans would not have had the resources to do much about it. It's much like as if the Welsh Celts had kept alive a desire to return to Britain after being driven out by the Saxons in 400/500AD, and going to war with the English in the 20th century to reclaim their promised land.	Terry Porritt (14)
369896	2005-07-08 23:17:00	Um . . . if we go back 2000 years, then the land belongs to the Italians! Because at that time Rome was the ruler :) Really the heart of the issue for Modern Israel are the actions and policies of the British . before then it was part of the then defunct Ottoman empire In WW1 Britian gave the land of palastine to the Arabs in return for help in the war . After WW2, they gave the land to the Jews as a homeland after the events of WW2 . Once the 2 peoples were together in the same land, they threw in the towel and left them to fight it out . And so they have been doing since .	netchicken (4843)
369897	2005-07-09 02:12:00	Basically the thing is that the israiles want to kill the palestinians because in their version of the bible it says that if somebody denies that allah is god and muhammad is his prophet then you should kill them. The very same book also states amongst other things, that it is okay for men to beat or even kill their wives if the don't obey. No offence to any muslims intended as i am not racist. Techiekid	techiekid (7219)
1 2 3