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Thread ID: 59753	2005-07-12 00:34:00	Wanna hear a good one?	SurferJoe46 (51)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
371398	2005-07-13 02:19:00	And yet, can anyone name another Western democracy where pistols etc can be owned by everyone? South Africa	Greg (193)
371399	2005-07-13 02:26:00	Fine. Call me on it. I don't care. :o Mind you, as an example of urban fear, SA rather proves the point that free access to handguns isn't a signature of a healthy safe society.	Winston001 (3612)
371400	2005-07-13 06:32:00	Fine. Call me on it. I don't care. :o Mind you, as an example of urban fear, SA rather proves the point that free access to handguns isn't a signature of a healthy safe society. It follows therefore that if the guns were taken away it would be safe and I doubt that.	Cicero (40)
371401	2005-07-13 19:14:00	Dear Winston001; While I do not own any firearms any more, and have no desire to purchase any replacements, I think there's a lot of illogical assumption about the gun laws, or lack of them here in the States . My personal feelings aside, there are SO many facets to this topic it cannot be understood or even comprehended by outsiders . Now, please don't get me wrong here as I am not trying to have an elitist attitude . The world's knee-jerk reaction to a nation of people armed so heavily as to outgun the police is just that . . . . a knee jerk . Criminal use of firearms is only one side of this issue . Owning and using a firearm is also very diverse in purpose and desire for the legal firearm owner . Home protection is paramount, as is the "right to bear arms" as it has been constitutionally deigned . I personally liked owning handguns and rifles for the sheer majesty of the mechanics of the device . There is also the beauty (in the eye of the beholder, for sure) of the etching, checkering, bluing and details of the mechanism . Target shooters and small game hunters and rodent "removers" are a part, albeit not of the whole picture, something that is never brought up as an arguement FOR ownership and use of small caliber arms . A farmer ridding his grainery of rodents and destructive rabbits and vermin that destroy crops and foodstuffs is I feel, a very decent "need to have" firearms support . As a sidebar here, California has some really severe penalties for carrying a weapon, and dire circumstances if one is caught using one in a crime . Arizona has CCW laws, that allow any CITIZEN the right to carry a concealed firearm in their vehicle . They do not even have to tell an officer of that possession in a traffic stop . Need I state that drive-by shootings are almost nonexistant in Arizona, nor are there many roadrage incidents either . Traffic flows smoother and "neater" that here in California, where a criminal knows that most lawful persons do not carry firearms and therefore are open game . Point made . Back to the right to bear . . . etc . . . . This point has been hammered and hammered by liberals and rightests and zealots on all sides of the issue, and there's just no final interpretation of the original writing of the constitution's formers . That vaguery is intentional by them . If one reads the constitution as an assignment (not done in the US schools nowadays), then these vagaries become apparent . The document formers and writers left a lot of grey-areas that needed to be brought to light as a state's rights or state-by-state interpretation; left to individual states to set bounderies to the original guidelines . That's the single most significant point of the constituition; leave these little laws up to the states . Broadsweeping rules and regulations are nice, but then a country as vast as the US needed to have "ZONAL" or "blue laws" per each state's requirements . This leaves one with many options: live in this state (X state) or that (Y state) that meets the needs of the individual . Kinda like tailoring your existance by the state in which you live . We had "dry" states where one could not buy alcohol, one of the last hold-outs for temperance just got "wet" today as a matter of fact . There were states that allowed slavery (in another post) and states that allowed homesteading and claiming of land, states that allowed gold or silver claims to run over private property, and some states even allow subsistance fishing or hunting without licenses, if one can prove that is the primary source of food for a household . So, there are so many reasons why the US is such a melting pot of laws, but they all have/had their place, and if looked upon with an open view, can be seen as useful at the time . The arguement then should be: "Have times changed that much, and if so where?" Now . . . the point that gets to me: By Federal law, an alien, naturalised or not, cannot own a projectile firing weapon of any caliber . They are limited to use of and ownership of shotguns, althought they must be of legal (18 inch long barrel) length . The most recent use of firearms has been by illegal aliens (another oxymoron there) who shoot up whole neighborhoods and cite their "civil rights" of which none are ascribed to any ILLEGAL person at all . We just this Tuesday, July 12th, had a televised shoot-out on tv with a stepfather having tried to kill his wife, she called 911 (the emergency US phone number) for help, the police arrived to find the stepfather shielding himself with his 19 month old infant and standing straight, shooting at police, wounding one and reloading in plain view and shooting again . He fired over 40 rounds of 9MM ACP and had a shotgun with a 6-shot magazine too . He had a box full of ammo . Hostage/victim negotiators had been in communication with him for hours; while wife had called the police, a 17 year old stepdaughter escaped and she told of the promise by her stepdad to kill the wife, her and the baby too . The police finally had to shoot him, killing both him and the baby while the father was able to let off another full clip at the police and the general citizenry . A tough call by the police . The man had repeated firearm arrests in the past and was not the "nice guy and fine father" the wife is now decrying . In less than 2 hours of his death, the wife has hired an attorney to sue the LAPD for "crass use of lethal force against her wonderful husband and fine father figure" . The wife and the 17 y/o daughter had BOTH called the police . He was an illegal alien exercising his civil rights by shooting and threatening to shoot people, police and children . Jesse Jackson has caught the next plane to render "legal assistance" the the poor, unfortunate, misunderstood murderer . The real problem is that the laws that are written are not enforced .	SurferJoe46 (51)
371402	2005-07-13 22:50:00	Most interesting Joe . It is easy for us outside the US to be critics . Actually I lived there for a year and remember being fascinated by the displays of handguns in shops . I freely confess that if it was lawful in NZ then I'd quite like a Colt Python, an AK47, maybe an M60 - just for the hell of it . Except my wife would nix that so it wouldn't happen anyway . :D As it is, we can own shotguns and rifles but not automatic military style weapons . An enthuasist can own a pistol but must belong to a shooting club and the weapon has to be secured in a safe . It is so difficult that most people (99 . 9%) don't . The point about handguns and automatic weapons is their availability . If they are not commonly owned in a country, then criminals will not usually have them . Of course guns do get smuggled or stolen from legitimate owners in England or NZ, and used . Nevertheless the use of handguns by criminals is rare . Sufficently so that neither the English nor the NZ police carry guns themselves . The problem with a pistol is that it is easy to conceal and a 6 year old child can use it . There are many accidental shootings in the US within homes because a loaded weapon is found and played with . The other problem with easy availability of handguns is that the risks of personal tension rise . Your husband curses you once too often and in a fit of rage you 86 the s . o . b . Without a gun, you'd either leave, have a blazing row, or one of you might spend a night in jail . The gun alters all of that . Suddenly one party is dead and the other is a murderer . We see this in road rage . Instead of abusing another driver, you can shoot him . Easy - doesn't matter how big or bad the other guy is . And then his passenger shoots you . And so it goes . Farmers, hunters etc can get by with rifles and shotguns, just as they do here . I know it isn't quite as simple as that but essentially guns are used in accidents and crimes because they exist . A whole level of tension and danger would evaporate if many Americans didn't believe that they could be shot at any time . :2cents: As to the illegal aliens? They are just folks, whatever the law may say, and if other folks around them have guns, they'll want them too .	Winston001 (3612)
371403	2005-07-14 00:34:00	Winston001: Every point you make is valid and I am certainly not pushing for either side in the issue . :groan: My basic concern is that the laws that exist here are not enforced in the first place . The nabobs and do-gooders try to pass more regulations and rules on a society that has a plethora of existant codiciles already in place, but ignored or not enforced . New York City has the Sullivan Act, which probably creates some of the toughest anti-personal ownership rules for handgun possession in the US . The death rate from handguns is probably also the highest percapita there too . See what I mean? I digress . . . the actual truth of the matter is that there is so little respect for life and "the other guy", and when that happens, blood and carnage is the result . Children have no morals because their parents have no morals because the media have no morals because the parents have no expectations because they have no morals, because . . on and on . . . . . the common denominator is the family unit . It doesn't exist any more .	SurferJoe46 (51)
371404	2005-07-14 01:37:00	As the resident exSA guy here, I think the SA Govt is trying to remove/limit handguns and limit them, without much success. Reason, quite simple: they want to remove the licenced, not-used personal weapons, but they can't get to the illegal weapons (being used in every kind of horrible crime you can imagine) so the "ownership" status of SA is changing slowly, as is the amount of living non-armed SA people (Old story - hand in me gun, get licence revoked, get shot by illegal gun). If and when I go for a visit (and I haven't for the last 10 yrs) want my 357 Magnum next to me - meet power with poer I say. sarel	sarel (2490)
371405	2005-07-14 02:31:00	Sarel - therein lies the rub. Lawabiding people will hand in their guns but if they feel that this is foolish because of the number of illegal weapons, then it won't happen. So the move to disarm a society is probably a two generational project. A bit like altering attitudes to alcohol here. New York City has the Sullivan Act, which probably creates some of the toughest anti-personal ownership rules for handgun possession in the US. The death rate from handguns is probably also the highest percapita there too. See what I mean? I digress...the actual truth of the matter is that there is so little respect for life and "the other guy", and when that happens, blood and carnage is the result. Children have no morals because their parents have no morals because the media have no morals because the parents have no expectations because they have no morals, because..on and on.....the common denominator is the family unit. It doesn't exist any more. Enforcing the law is impossible if that law is not respected or obeyed by most of the population. We tend to blame the police etc but in reality every citizen has to recognise the moral force of law and obey it. Unless we move to an East German type police state, we cannot expect laws to be enforced in every case. I know what you mean about "little respect for the other guy". That is happening here too. But I wonder if it really only applies to a section of society. My impression of Americans is that they are decent, kind, and generous people. Quite religious in places too. However this image doesn't play in TV dramas, sitcoms, or newspapers. Too dull. Instead dysfunction is made to seem normal.	Winston001 (3612)
371406	2005-07-14 04:52:00	Apart from "The Little House On The Praire" days.	Cicero (40)
371407	2005-07-14 05:20:00	And BONANZA. :thumbs:	Winston001 (3612)
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