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Thread ID: 60834	2005-08-14 11:47:00	Stingray Firewall	zqwerty (97)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
381058	2006-02-07 23:14:00	But we cannot presume optimal usage or knowledge from a consumers perspective . This is reality and to say to someone 'learn this' otherwise you will have to spend alot of money is just wrong . In an ideal world, yes, but we are not living in an ideal world are we? Unfortunately people do have to learn how to protect themselves and their PCs when they go online because sooner or later they are going to get their fingers (or wallets) burnt otherwise . If they don't want to learn and don't want to continually pay for someone to fix up their infected PCs then they will just have to get off and stay off the internet . That is reality - sad but a fact of life, unfortunately .	FoxyMX (5)
381059	2006-02-08 04:00:00	foxy . . . you have it in a nutshell . Personal firewalls are inherently complicated bull . how much simplier than "yes or no" can you get . if they can't answer yes or no then they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a pc . We have also debated the software firewall initiative and guess what, there are concerns . I am not saying that Stingray is the end all, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . blah blah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . To expect them to learn a different dicipline can lead to confusion and/or steadfast rebellion . what a load of PR bull . By the way, Asynchonous Digital Subscriber Lines (ADSL) is an Internet medium such as Cable, Universal Serial Bus (USB) is not . no kidding . whats that got to do with the price of fish? at the end of the day, you still havn't/can't prove that stingray or any other external firewall can stop any trojen, back door, keylogger or any of the malware nasties that account for 95% of pc problems . criky it can't even stop that keyboard driver from sucking up my very expencive broadband cap . so WHY would anyone pay for a product that does sweet stuff all?	tweak'e (69)
381060	2006-02-08 08:16:00	Hi Guys, All I am saying is to equip consumers with the tools that they are comforatable with, not to overwhelme them with technically intensive jargon. Software firewalls are good tools from a technical perspective but to have a consumer answer 'yes' or 'no', as you have simply put it, is like playing Russian Roulette. Answer 'yes' or 'no' to what, half the time they do not even understand what they are accepting and/or denying? If you have services that are on your computer such as AV's and AS applications, why would you like to endure further resource usage by introducing a software firewall into the mix? The idea is to decrease your resource usage and implement a FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE before your computer is compromised. Not everybody is as technically savy as you are Tweak'e and not everybody is running a 3 GHz system with 1 GHz of Ram. Everybody has their opinion but I find Skype an incredible voip technology, central servers is good network architecture, as well as Stingray's Internet Security Suite to be very appealing, because of their simplicity and prowess in their specific decipline.	Julie (8718)
381061	2006-02-08 09:47:00	Hi Guys, All I am saying is to equip consumers with the tools that they are comforatable with, not to overwhelme them with technically intensive jargon. Software firewalls are good tools from a technical perspective but to have a consumer answer 'yes' or 'no' , as you have simply put it, is like playing Russian Roulette. Answer 'yes' or 'no' to what, half the time they do not even understand what they are accepting and/or denying?the simple way of doing it is deny everthing and see what dosn't work. If you have services that are on your computer such as AV's and AS applications, why would you like to endure further resource usage by introducing a software firewall into the mix? The idea is to decrease your resource usage and implement a FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE before your computer is compromised.most won't miss the resourses. the problem with your theroy is your thinking your pc is actualy protected. its not. users will infect themselves no matter what, no firewall will ever stop that. however a software firewall will id the infection and with a good user stop it from spreading, sending out data or even downloading even more infections. something an external firewal simply cannot prevent. Not everybody is as technically savy as you are Tweak'e and not everybody is running a 3 GHz system with 1 GHz of Ram. Everybody has their opinion but I find Skype an incredible voip technology, central servers is good network architecture, as well as Stingray's Internet Security Suite to be very appealing, because of their simplicity and prowess in their specific decipline. i have to hand it to you for being persistant but your flogging a dead duck. anyone buying a external firewall thinking it will protect themselves will learn the hardway that it dosn't. strangly enough i'm suprised no one has made an external firewall that runs something like outpost office firewall. ie it can control the software firewall on all the users pc's. you have the best of both worlds, an external firewall + software firewall. add antivirus, ad blocking, DNS cacheing, auto updateing of programs lists and AV, it would be a GREAT product. you could have a master pc that can control what programs get allowed net access from the other pc's, eg parents can control what programs the kids can use online without having to go do it at each pc.	tweak'e (69)
381062	2006-02-09 08:22:00	the simple way of doing it is deny everthing and see what dosn't work . most won't miss the resourses . the problem with your theroy is your thinking your pc is actualy protected . its not . users will infect themselves no matter what, no firewall will ever stop that . however a software firewall will id the infection and with a good user stop it from spreading, sending out data or even downloading even more infections . something an external firewal simply cannot prevent . What happens when something doesn't work, do you expect the user to know what to do and how to react if this happens? Also, you are assuming that the user will say NO to all outgoing infected information . I am sure once one of their services has stopped working because of them saying NO, they will quicking change their tune, especially when one of their service has stopped working plus annoying prompts from the software firewall is present . i have to hand it to you for being persistant but your flogging a dead duck . anyone buying a external firewall thinking it will protect themselves will learn the hardway that it dosn't . Have you seen a continual attack on a software firewall like DOS (Denial of Service attack)? This will slow your computer to a crawl because the Software Firewall is using most of the resources to thwart this type of attack . With an external device, especially one that doesn't respond to any requests including pings, you will not even notice the difference . strangly enough i'm suprised no one has made an external firewall that runs something like outpost office firewall . ie it can control the software firewall on all the users pc's . you have the best of both worlds, an external firewall + software firewall . add antivirus, ad blocking, DNS cacheing, auto updateing of programs lists and AV, it would be a GREAT product . you could have a master pc that can control what programs get allowed net access from the other pc's, eg parents can control what programs the kids can use online without having to go do it at each pc . Excellent idea but it might be too costly and too confusing for most consumers to use . Plus, anything that emaps both i/o data streams without a dedicated network controller, can fall victim to information overload (DOS) . But if can introduce two independent processors, one for internal management and the other for external threat prevention, this can be interesting .	Julie (8718)
381063	2006-02-09 09:12:00	What happens when something doesn't work, do you expect the user to know what to do and how to react if this happens? Also, you are assuming that the user will say NO to all outgoing infected information. I am sure once one of their services has stopped working because of them saying NO, they will quicking change their tune, especially when one of their service has stopped working plus annoying prompts from the software firewall is present. funny enough that dosn't happen much at all. get a few whos browser can't acces the net due to http is going through a malware which is blocked. most twig to it or a least ring and ask. also the fact that a werid program they never heard of is asking for net access is the first clue that somethings wrong. something external firewalls cannot do. talking of people changing their tune....EVERY PERSON i know that has said "don't need AV" "don't need firewall" has changed their tune after being infected. paying $$$ for their pc to be fixed and the fact that its a personal invasion means they WANT to learn how to stop it. people WILL learn. Have you seen a continual attack on a software firewall like DOS (Denial of Service attack)? This will slow your computer to a crawl because the Software Firewall is using most of the resources to thwart this type of attack. With an external device, especially one that doesn't respond to any requests including pings, you will not even notice the difference. the main resource hogging is not from the DOS but rather from the LOGGING of the DOS. thats why most decent firewalls have log limits. hardware firewalls are not immune to DOS either. don't forget hardware firewalls are basicly a software firewall running on hardware (and can be hacked as has happened with certain routers and adsl modems). also home users are very rarely on the receiving end of DOS attacks. even if they are a simply modem reboot means a new IP addy, problem solved (unless your being tracked by a trojen which will go straight through an external fiewall). DOS attacks are a minor problem for home users. not much point having a product protecting against 1% of the attacks and not the other 99%. software firewalls are here to stay. they are a neccary evil. get used to it. :thumbs:	tweak'e (69)
381064	2006-02-09 17:34:00	funny enough that dosn't happen much at all . get a few whos browser can't acces the net due to http is going through a malware which is blocked . most twig to it or a least ring and ask . also the fact that a werid program they never heard of is asking for net access is the first clue that somethings wrong . something external firewalls cannot do . talking of people changing their tune . . . . EVERY PERSON i know that has said "don't need AV" "don't need firewall" has changed their tune after being infected . paying $$$ for their pc to be fixed and the fact that its a personal invasion means they WANT to learn how to stop it . people WILL learn: AV's are important and should be part of the arsenal and AS's, for that matter, is essential as well, but these two aside, let's say the user is equiped with an updated AV and AS, why the extra add on and annoying prompts . Believe me from users perspective, they cannot be bothered to get involved with technical issues . Just keeping their AV's and AS's updated (which should happen automatically) is a daunting and intensive task . the main resource hogging is not from the DOS but rather from the LOGGING of the DOS . thats why most decent firewalls have log limits . hardware firewalls are not immune to DOS either . don't forget hardware firewalls are basicly a software firewall running on hardware (and can be hacked as has happened with certain routers and adsl modems) . also home users are very rarely on the receiving end of DOS attacks . even if they are a simply modem reboot means a new IP addy, problem solved (unless your being tracked by a trojen which will go straight through an external fiewall) . DOS attacks are a minor problem for home users . not much point having a product protecting against 1% of the attacks and not the other 99% . software firewalls are here to stay . they are a neccary evil . get used to it . :thumbs: Now we are on the same page, sort of (lol) . You are correct when you say that most hardware firewalling products are running a software equivalent, so what's the difference? This where I am impressed with the Stingray . From having used it and from what I have read, it has a proprietary firmware designed specifically for the network controller and just for the task in hand (security) . Hence, not just a software firewall running on an appliance . Therefore, enundating or takeover issues are not there! No fingerprinting or pinging is possible . And creating rulesets on-the-fly with zero administration, very interesting . Plus, it comes with lifetime of AV! Having used it for a while now - THIS IS WHY I FIND IT SO IMPRESSIVE . Did you know that one of the largest companies in North America uses Stingrays for their remote locations, including home offices and travel? This apparently up and above their software solution . DOS happens everyday, I see it all the time, not only commercially but in residential areas as well . It is more than 1% by the way, especially where Cable broadband initiatives are offered . Please understand, there are various facets of DOS including "ping of death," etc . I think having a Software firewall is a good idea but have an external equivalant so that your software does not need to tax your resources . Also, be aware that training is involved and like all software, it needs to be kept uptodate and a new version purchased from time to time . If you have said NO to a legitimate service and application, do not try to fix it yourself, talk to a tech first . :waughh:	Julie (8718)
381065	2006-02-09 22:28:00	AV's are important and should be part of the arsenal and AS's, for that matter, is essential as well, but these two aside, let's say the user is equiped with an updated AV and AS, why the extra add on and annoying prompts . Believe me from users perspective, they cannot be bothered to get involved with technical issues . Just keeping their AV's and AS's updated (which should happen automatically) is a daunting and intensive task . go back a page you've forgotten allready . its allready proven that AV/AS is not reliable and dosn't alwasy work, even when fully updated . Did you know that one of the largest companies in North America uses Stingrays for their remote locations, including home offices and travel? This apparently up and above their software solution . but thats not HOME users ! DOS happens everyday, I see it all the time, not only commercially but in residential areas as well . It is more than 1% by the way, especially where Cable broadband initiatives are offered . Please understand, there are various facets of DOS including "ping of death," etc . its still a minor issue . nothing a software firewall can't handle and a modem reboot can't fix . very few home users have static ip's over here . Again all you have is a product that is only going to stop 5% of the sicurity issues present today . malware infections account for the majority of the repairs done to home pc's, external firewalls cannot stop it in any way . your asking people to BUY a product which cannot stop 95% of sicurity issues . even IF you conclude that software firewalls can't handle certain attacks, can get turned off etc, its still better to stop 95% than the measly 5% an external firewall is going to do . now if they are runing external modem (which you need before you can use stingray) they will have an external firewall (even if its not as good as stingray . . . lets say only protects 4%) then the combo of software firewall + the existing hardware firewall will give them 99% protection . and you want people to drop a 99% solution to have a solution that only protects 5% . . . . . . . ARE YOU NUTS ! ! ! for humble joe bloggs a measly 95% software firewall solution is still better than the 5% solution stingray offers . no matter how good you think stingray is its still a product that has no real value for home users other than sucking in gullible people who mistakenly think it will protect them .	tweak'e (69)
381066	2006-02-09 23:02:00	Methinks "Julie" must have a vested interest in Stingray :) My main concern with any hardware firewall is will it let me listen to Live365 :) which because of the thousands of stations uses (dynamically?) allocated ports in the range 4000 - 32000? I know my Dynalink router hardware firewall doesn't work for those sort of applications.	Terry Porritt (14)
381067	2006-02-09 23:33:00	Julie, this guy is like a pit bull terrier with its fangs embedded in an intruder's leg when it comes to this subject so there is no way you are going to win . Don't give up however as it is hugely entertaining and I am thoroughly enjoying the debate . :thumbs: :D Actually, might I suggest though, that instead of enthusiastically promoting Stingray to people who are that bothered or lazy about having to take internet security precautions with their PCs, why don't you just tell them to go buy a Mac? Problem solved . OMG, I can't believe I just said that! :eek: :xmouth: :badpc: <runs and hides from tweak'e>	FoxyMX (5)
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