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Thread ID: 60834	2005-08-14 11:47:00	Stingray Firewall	zqwerty (97)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
381048	2006-02-01 10:57:00	Tweaks, software firewalls are wonderful monitoring solutions but to have your first line of defense imbedded into the very thing that you want to protect (your computer) is VERY risky at best. Plus, the resource usage and reliance on the users technical knowledge is unfair. Remember, you can have the BEST software firewall in the WORLD but it is only as good as your Operating System. I have not found an Operating System without vunerabilities yet. Food for thought... :nerd:	Julie (8718)
381049	2006-02-01 23:39:00	ok this old thread again...... first of all where talking about home users. 2nd, you need to run a software firewall to controll outbound programs, something external hardware firewalls can't do. 3rd, a program exploiting an OS vunerabilty goes straight through a hardware firewall anyway, the user downloads it like any other program. no firewall, hardware or software, can stop that. however a software firewall can stop that malicous prog from accessing back to the net. 4th, i would call running a software firewall risky, it certainly LESS risky than relying on a hardware firewall thats only doing half the job. 5th, a software firewall is not "only as good as the OS". what a bizare statemant. while there are a few ways of getting around them they are rare and usually require a pc to be badly infected. a hardware f irewall will not stop that either. also several people here keep reminding us of how they are running completely unpatched OS's for years without problems, the softwware firewall still dos its job perfectly. and lastly, to use the stingray (or most other hardware firewalls) you need an external adsl modem, which have their own built in firewall which makes another hardware firewall reduntant. so yet again an external hardware firewall is a waste of $$$ for home users. i see your back again doing the promotion ciruit again, getting paid well? :D ;)	tweak'e (69)
381050	2006-02-06 21:34:00	Hi tweaks, Let us put Stingray aside for the moment (they should be paying me for this . . he . . he . . ) . As well as the Software providers should be paying you for your inputs as well - huh? Let us consider what you have said for the moment; Yes, we are talking about home users and hence relying on their technical knowledge to train your software is daunting at best? You did not explain the First line of defense issues . You keep on expressing outgoing concerns but is your anti-spyware and anti virus software not designed to prevent this type of infestation? Have we not heard of Software firewalls being turned off on occasion through infection? I think we can all agree that if an interface is available for a product, it is vulnerable . After all, if you can get into it so can anybody else . Have we explored the resource issues inherant with software solutions . They do not have small footprints . Do Software firewalls not need updates and patches? You are saying that most modems comes with a firewall and hence the Stingray is redundant . Therefore, a modem with a firewall is all we need and no security vulnerability should occur with this combination? Even if it is setup with default settings and is not maintained on a regular basis, as most home users do not know how to configure . Having a solution (Stingray) that auto configures for the home user is redundant? I beg to differ . And lastly, are you saying that a newbie can configure a software solution without any concerns and set it up plus understand it proficiently?	Julie (8718)
381051	2006-02-06 22:01:00	I don't think a hardware firewall is such a bad idea, used in conjunction with a software firewall with app/services control setup correctly. The contention that "home users" learn pretty damn quick after forking out for a overhaul is not born out by what happens time and time again vis the ease with which viruses and spyware is propogated. Here's a true story related to me by someone who deals with the public in a sector unrelated to IT. A customer told this person that, because their newish computer had got infected for a 2nd time (the implication being that it was the computers fault) in the year and, that it had been running slowly prior to the first infection and and again before this one, rather than taking it back to the tech again to have it "repaired", they took it to the tip. That is, they biffed the whole kit & caboodle including, printer, scanner, router, speakers and whatever other bits and pieces they had. A bit extreme, but I have heard of people buying new PCs because the old one was running a bit slow lately. There's no teaching some people basic common sense, they refuse to know, are too lazy or too thick. The thing that really bothers me, is that, thse people most probably have drivers licences and children, they may even have responsible jobs in city councils, Govt, utilities and corporations that affect the economy....shudder!!	Murray P (44)
381052	2006-02-07 05:07:00	Hi tweaks, Let us put Stingray aside for the moment (they should be paying me for this..he..he..). As well as the Software providers should be paying you for your inputs as well - huh? yeah pcworld, ZA, avg owe me heaps of $$$ LOL Let us consider what you have said for the moment; Yes, we are talking about home users and hence relying on their technical knowledge to train your software is daunting at best? no. they either learn or pay the price of not learning and trust me they learn really fast after the first several $100 repair jobs. You did not explain the First line of defense issues. first line of defence may be a good idea for corpurate setups but it dosn't apply to home users. so what if its slightly more risky have a firewall on the pc rather than external. the risk is minimal. compared to not having a software firewall the risk is not worth worring about. certainly an external is better BUT for a non-critical pc (home users) its not worth the extra cost and hassle. You keep on expressing outgoing concerns but is your anti-spyware and anti virus software not designed to prevent this type of infestation? NO. time and time again its proven that this type of software fails or cannot keep up with the rapid rate of new infections. its good WHEN IT WORKS. trouble is uses tend to forget to update or even use it. Have we not heard of Software firewalls being turned off on occasion through infection? it can be. however a person noticing that their firewall isn't working is imeditaly warned that something is wrong and can take steps to fix it. without a firewall they would never know about being infected. I think we can all agree that if an interface is available for a product, it is vulnerable. After all, if you can get into it so can anybody else. Have we explored the resource issues inherant with software solutions. They do not have small footprints. the price you pay for sicurity. less recourses, something most people never notice. Do Software firewalls not need updates and patches? updates, yes but its not critical. even an old firewall will still work, it just may not stop some of the more advanced attacks. its not often the updates are critical, most are bug fix or feature enhancements. You are saying that most modems comes with a firewall and hence the Stingray is redundant. Therefore, a modem with a firewall is all we need and no security vulnerability should occur with this combination? Even if it is setup with default settings and is not maintained on a regular basis, as most home users do not know how to configure. Having a solution (Stingray) that auto configures for the home user is redundant? I beg to differ. there is not much to configure on a firewall, simply to put a hole in it for certain programs. most people will never need to config a firewall. even IF anything goes past it its still got the software firewall to get past as well. And lastly, are you saying that a newbie can configure a software solution without any concerns and set it up plus understand it proficiently? millions do everyday. most don't understand the advanced side of things but most will never need to. why do you think ZA free is so popular? it dos the job with minimal user input for majority of users and the price can't be beat ;) i recommend external adsl modems simply due to them handling poor lines better and are not as touchy as USB. the firewall is a bonus, not a requirement.	tweak'e (69)
381053	2006-02-07 06:06:00	"no. they either learn or pay the price of not learning and trust me they learn really fast after the first several $100 repair jobs." What world are you living in tweak'e The average home user does not have any firewall apart from the XP one Even if one is installed for them they have no interest in learning how to configure or manage it. If something does not happen automatically they don't want to know about it. They open their email program and if mail does not arrive they are lost. If you ask then what their email program is they don't know. If you ask them to open their web browser they ask what is that. Ask them what operating system they are using and you get - don't know. They don't know if they have anti- virus installed or if it is updated This is what you are up against and your comments show you have no understanding what is going on in the average home. You must be dealing with the more computer literate section of the population I think.	Safari (3993)
381054	2006-02-07 06:23:00	yes i get lots of those. however i actually bother to teach them so they are no longer ignorant. most, but not all, learn and actually become computer literate. unforunatly there is a lot of so called pc techs who simply treat people as a cash cow, milking their $$$ time and time again.	tweak'e (69)
381055	2006-02-07 08:24:00	First of all, have you ever tried un-installing ZA...this could be alot of fun. The idea to secure the user is to introduce 'idiot proof' solutions that will secure them without it becoming a "cash cow" - this is where Stingray excels and what I find very impressive. I guess, from a retailers point of view, introducing a secure 'idiot proof' solution might reduce a customers cash contributions but will increase revenue by encouraging this customer to introduce friends and family members to the retailer. Who would not encourage their friends and family to purchase something that has saved them money? Plus Tweak'e, AV's and AS's have changed, they tend to update by themselves without any user involvment. By the way, having a philosophy that a few OPEN holes doesn't matter is where vulnerabilities occur. A lock-tight solution is where NO holes should be available to a potential hacker, period. And Safari...THANK YOU...I am glad someone realizes what an average consumer really is.	Julie (8718)
381056	2006-02-07 09:11:00	yes i have actually uninstalled ZA, i have tried a lot of the main firewalls over the last 5 years or so. The idea to secure the user is to introduce 'idiot proof' solutions that will secure them without it becoming a "cash cow" - this is where Stingray excels and what I find very impressive. this is exactly what i was talking about, you have someone promote something that is "secure" and "idiot proof" when in actual fact it isn't secure (malware will go straight through it). all this does is fools a poor user into thinking they are secure and they will be turned into a cash cow, simply because they will need to get their pc fixed "cause they can't work out why its going so slow" all the time. and before you ask i have had that many a time and have no doubt the pc repair guys on this forum get it EVERY week if not daily. an external firewall will not save a customer any money, they will get infected as per normall and they proberly won't even know it. a lot of people don't even know that they are behind an external firewall and they still get infected. lots if not most AV's and antispyware don't autoupdate fully. a lot ASK to update, leaving the user to do it, or in a lot of cases not do it. thats number 1 reason AV dosn't always work. lastly..........none of these arguments are new. been hearing it over the last 5+ years. its been debated to death and back. even with big name IT pro's promoting external firewalls it still didn't hold up. the main people against personal firewalls has always been the IT help desk who can't be bothered teaching their clients. it much easier for them to have infected clients than it is to clean them out every time they get infected. please just give the poor user the tools and knowledge rather than mask the problem with another 'wonder pill' which only does half the job.	tweak'e (69)
381057	2006-02-07 10:21:00	Personal firewalls are inherently complicated, reliant and a resource hog. We have also debated the software firewall initiative and guess what, there are concerns. I am not saying that Stingray is the end all, but not to give it a try and address comments from the sidelines is prejedice at best. Let's not speculate but be certain with your assessments. I have used both hardware and software solutions. I have been teaching consumers for a number of years. Plus, have tested various solutions during my lifetime. Software solutions are good if used properly. In fact, any solution is good when used properly. But we cannot presume optimal usage or knowledge from a consumers perspective. This is reality and to say to someone 'learn this' otherwise you will have to spend alot of money is just wrong. The idea for optimal deployment is to acsertain the level of knowledge present then provide adequate solutions that will compliment this level of knowledge for optimal results. Not the other way around. Consumers are proficient in their core competency and utilize tools (such as computers and the Internet) to enhance their experience. To expect them to learn a different dicipline can lead to confusion and/or steadfast rebellion. Retailers know this and try to take advantage of this fact. Try for a moment to be more flexible and less assuming of Internet users. By the way, Asynchonous Digital Subscriber Lines (ADSL) is an Internet medium such as Cable, Universal Serial Bus (USB) is not.	Julie (8718)
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