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Thread ID: 61441	2005-09-05 03:32:00	The golf balls, sand and a professor:OT!	SurferJoe46 (51)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
386228	2005-09-07 23:33:00	At the time that America developed, and ultimatly used a nuke/WMD, others were hoping to do the same. America got in first. Had they not have it was inevitable they would have had one used on them. I shall not debate the justification of tactics, but i will argue that America was not alone in the developmental stages of WMDs. Every major power at the time of that war was trying to be the first, and to win the world domination game through a show of ultimate power. Purely speculation, history however speaks for itself. In short, the whole human race sux, if we focus on the negative equally. However Americas size allows it to be easily targeted for such attention. Agreed, americas history however does make it a justifiable target in this instance.	Veale (536)
386229	2005-09-07 23:46:00	For what it is worth, the first weapon of mass destruction was the machine gun. And the Germans invented their own weapon - it was called the gas chamber.	Winston001 (3612)
386230	2005-09-08 01:59:00	I did watch it (9/11) and thought it to be a piece of cr*p - anybody who believes that will believe anything, even perhaps that flying saucers and aliens do exist. But then that is my view and I stick to it. sarel	sarel (2490)
386231	2005-09-08 02:14:00	Let me first state that I am not speaking from some sort of ivory tower, nor am I talking from a garbage pit . I am going to try for neutral ground here, but I say that the right of anyone to swing his fist . . . ends at the tip of my nose . I don't really take offense to statements made here . . . . those who feel the way they do surely have their reasons and it is not for me to re-gruntle disgruntled persons . With an allowance for the 2% factor, (there are probably fewer radicals in NZ than in the US, although the percentages stay about the same) . . . the things said so far (the negative ones anyway) are obvious to the world by the size of the headlines in the press . Ultimately, there are just as many percentiles of nut-cases and "other country haters" here as there are with you . The Bush bashing is not something I would defend or condemn . Every one is entitled to an opinion, no matter how it may wrinkle our own noses . Facts are relative to the person spewing them, and can be made to represent the most vile and reprehensable arguements against someone or something . I prefer to not wrestle with those "facts" and may that not be counted as a weakness on my part . A-politicalism is my choice . . but I do feel that in all fairness, there are some things that are just plain nasty and vitrolic in the statements made here by a couple of . . . . . persons . . . . . . . . ahem! There are many snakes in the grass at all levels of government . . . yours and the US are not exempt . The scale of the corruption here is huge compared to smaller nations, and that's perhaps what the press picks up on and spreads as a blanket paint job and so-called gospel truth of the US lifestyle . We do not all live in Beverly Hills, nor in Podunck Tennessee . There is a great central-themed and vastly unheard majority of people who don't make the headlines or the tv shows . They are the people who unfortunately get painted with the big brush of fanatacism, hatred and jealousy for the American way of life . These same persons in the silent majority don't commit driveby shootings, don't litter and they pick up after their pets . They have jobs and wish that government would just stay out of their lives and let them prosper with no intervention by/of big brother . I imagine NZ'rs would like that too . . . or so I have seen in some of the politically charged discussions here about your politicians . Everybody has warts . . . and NO country is exempt . The warts here just are not so easy to hide . The whole world watches for chinks in the armor and they seem to get jollies over finding that there's evil in the US . I don't argue that it is there or isn't . . . it just gets all blown outta proportion because of the sheer size of the US . Influence from US "culture" . . . for good or bad is world-wide in scope . . . and even I don't like to see it become the style of other peoples . I like differences and cultures and social contrasts and feel sorry if all the world became like the US . We have the highest infant birth weight and live births in the world . We have the cutting edge on medical techniques and we have the largest infrastructure of power and energy delivery in the world . We have the largest technical workforce in the world, and the Made In The USA label was the greatest attestation of quality and purity in food, machinery, medicines and drugs, and steel and iron ores and copper and aluminum and science . I don't quibble that there are countries vying for that enviable position . . . even though they use slave labor to manufacture such items . If you watch the world trends, the Chinese and Indonesia are fast becoming the place to get all the world's goods manufactured now . . . but I say it's not for the quality control of those goods . . . but the prices . We unfortunately were saddled with labor unions that assured even idiots a job and a retirement plan that took the individual and rendered him a blip on an actuarian table of profits and losses, and little more . The socialism that ran so rampant in the US spoiled every worker and now we pay for it as we become the user of, but not the producer of technology . I am sorry . . but in my eyes, unions, socialism, and democrats are all interchangeable terms . The advent of "it takes a village" mentality that shuns personal responsibility and foists it off on the "evil society" that was formed by the country's founders, is just so much rhetoric . The proof is in the pudding, so to speak . . we have the highest crime rate and largest number of people in prisons, and the largest number of child molesters and wanton rapists released back into society to re-rape and re-molest in the world . It's all the "bleeding heart" liberals who are responsible for this travesty in the courts . Reformation is not an issue here . Punishment should be . Crimes with no possible punishment or a trip to the shrink does not "cure" anyone of sociopathic actions . We have highschool graduates here who cannot even write their own names, have no idea where New Zealand is (Is it near Old Zealand?), and cannot count change in the market . These are the future leaders of the world, if not the US, and they are illiterate and unread, unclassed and even unbathed . They do, however recognise their favorite movie or tv star, can chant along with the rap music and have all the latest "things and gadgets" that mom and dad (if he is around) can buy . The divorce rate is about 58% of all marriages now, and if a young male black teenager isn't killed in a drive-by, he and his whole family or the other kids standing with him on a corner are all shot down as a gang statement . Absent fathers (prison? dead? just ran away?) are the normal as teen and subteen girls try to raise their children alone (if they don't abort them first) and they line up for W . I . C . (Women, infants, children) food and rent subsidies . To get an abortion requires NO parental permission . . . even if the girl is 11 years old . Ghetto teen males . . . if they live long enough, usually wind up in prisons or choose military induction to avoid a long prison term . Schools provide "social graduations" for students who cannot read, but "have to graduate" to be with their friends . Teachers teach in classes where the students are usually armed better than the riot police . Drugs are the norm . . date rape drugs, Ecstasy, speed, heroin, cocaine and marajuana are all traded openly . . . . . . even parents provide them to their kids so they can be accepted by their peers . (We wouldn't want to scar a child's social status . . . would we? See how cute he is when he says: 'Derail-de-train'" . ) Responsibility takes a backseat to being non-accountable for things they do . The latest shooting incident had the mother and sister of the guy who just shot 13 people in a parking lot, telling the reporters that "He was such a GOOD boy and never had any trouble with the law . . . he was well liked by all his friends and we KNOW he is being framed by the police for this . " He was brutally shot dead by a SWAT cop before he got read his Miranda Rights" . . . the youth was reloading his AK-47 with a new clip . . . he was out of bullets, and the police got a clean shot at him before they had the chance to tell him he had the right to an attorney; if he could not afford and attorney, one would be appointed to him for free . The sister said "The cops put the gun in his hands to make him look guilty . He would not do that!" The boy wore a red bandana, marking him a member of the street gang called "The Crips", his head was shaved, and he had gang-related tattoos on his face and arms . He may indeed have been one of the BETTER of his crowd, but he was not a GOOD boy . Maybe I am just daydreaming here, but I thought NZ was a place of rugged individuals (I saw all the Dundee movies) who have a common decency standard and personal obeyance of things social and upbuilding . . . sorry to brand anyone with the wrong title if I did here . I have travelled a lot in Europe, and the Orient, and still would have loved visiting NZ . I got to Perth a couple of times, and . . . YES . . I know! It ain't NZ! . . . but it's as close as I got . I am kinda shocked to hear a NZ'r say things that don't ring true . . . the loss of a kingdom . . . and all that . . . is currently "the loss of family values and social graces" are the price we pay for letting the tail wag the dog for too long . Where will it end or change? I don't know . . . . . . but I have a spiritual clue . If a finger is to be pointed toward a nation, then I guess there are quite a few shoes that the US could wear . . but people who import lifestyles and institutions from other shores are wont to replicate the very things they eschew and very few rights to call it something they don't like .	SurferJoe46 (51)
386232	2005-09-08 02:26:00	Veale: May I assume then that I am not invited to share a beer at your place this weekend? I was going to come and surprise you..but maybe not now.	SurferJoe46 (51)
386233	2005-09-08 02:42:00	Joe, You could take what you say about US "society" and what sounds like its collapse, and if you then change the names and places, 90% would apply here . We're just too small to catch the radar . Don't get me wrong, i love my country too, but to deny the way things are getting is far more than rose coloured glasses could ever hide . I suspect that that applies globally Which brings us back to the golfballs, the sand, and all that good stuff . :D	personthingy (1670)
386234	2005-09-08 03:08:00	Afternoon Joe, Beer in my fridge are always cold and solid debate is always welcome at my place no matter what nationality......provided you are polite and well-mannered :p	Veale (536)
386235	2005-09-08 03:11:00	I did watch it (9/11) and thought it to be a piece of cr*p - anybody who believes that will believe anything, even perhaps that flying saucers and aliens do exist. But then that is my view and I stick to it. sarelI don't think that any of the information presented in F 9/11 was disputed sarel. If Mr Moore had lied about any of it I am sure he would have been sued into the grave, and beyond. The best you can do is say that some of it was taken out of context, but it all added up to not a very pretty picture. -Qyiet	qyiet (6730)
386236	2005-09-08 12:25:00	I did watch it (9/11) and thought it to be a piece of cr*p - anybody who believes that will believe anything, even perhaps that flying saucers and aliens do exist. :groan: Sensationalism as it's worst. I can't believe that I actually have to spell this out..... Do you believe the 'spin' released by the Bush administration? So you think there is a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Do you think Saddam had weapons of mass destruction? So you think it is ok for one country to pre-emptively invade another, even if there is no threat? If you believe all that, then enjoy the UFO hunting and give my regards to the next alien wielding a probe. Moore used the politicians own words against them. When Ms Rice is shaking her head and saying that there are WMD - do you believe her words or her body language? Bush practising his 'concerned' look before a national address, only to give a boyish smirk - which was the real emotion? Where I come from, actions speak louder than words - especially the words of a politician. No WMD have been found in Iraq (www.msnbc.msn.com) and the administration lied about why they invaded Iraq. (www.csmonitor.com) There were no mobile laboratories & there was no anthrax. (observer.guardian.co.uk) There was no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda (www.washingtonpost.com), and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. (news.bbc.co.uk) Must I provide more examples and links? As Qyiet mentioned, Moore hasn't been sued so where is the 'crap'? I concede Moore has an 'interesting' method of delivering his message, but it doesn't undermine his points or weaken his argument. What's next from Bush and his cronies? A strategic withdrawal from Iraq via Iran? Halliburton to get the next contract to investigate the missing billion$ in Iraq? Halliburton is now profiteering from Katrina (houston.bizjournals.com) - aren't there any other general contract companies in the US? Surely I don't need to explain the link between Cheney & Halliburton? (www.independent-media.tv) but I do feel that in all fairness, there are some things that are just plain nasty and vitrolic in the statements made here by a couple of .....persons........ahem! The reason there are 'unfavourable opinions' towards your administration Joe (and like Veale, I'm more than happy to debate this over a cold beer) is because of greed, lies / 'mis-information', an unprovoked invasion of another country and the double standards. Double standards? Wasn't Bush going to wipe out evil and tyranny wherever it lurked? (news.minnesota.publicradio.org) What about Zimbabwe? What about Burma? What about Palestine? Nothing happened there - plus aren't the Koreans trying to 'build WMD' of the nuclear variety? Did Bush intervene in any of these situations? Nope. So why Iraq? There's nothing nasty or 'vitrolic' - these are facts. Unpleasant? Yes. Hard to accept? Yes. You may not like them but they are facts (and it's nothing personal). You speak of the quiet or the moral majority - these are the very people who re-elected the self-styled 'war president' (quote : "I'm a war President" (www.msnbc.msn.com)) in times of peace. There is no war on terror - there is no terror and your homeland is not under threat! Don't get brain-washed by the BS & 'spin'. These are thinly veiled excuses to rob ordinary Americans (& other inhabitants of this planet) of their civil liberties (www.newsmax.com) while a privileged few gorge themselves, like pigs in a trough, on the excesses earned from oil and war. Need I say more? This has nothing to do with jealousy, American products, or envy. Some people have actually woken up and smelt the coffee - and it doesn't smell too good if you get too close! /rant A Late edit : I see Deputy Howard is now getting in on the act (news.bbc.co.uk)	andrew93 (249)
386237	2005-09-08 20:56:00	Sensationalism as it's worst . I can't believe that I actually have to spell this out . . . . . Andrew I don't know why I have to spell it out as well . Do you believe the 'spin' released by the Bush administration? So you think there is a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Yes - there was a link . You ever did any Army duty and perhaps in Intelligence? Do you think Saddam had weapons of mass destruction? Yes - and it's probably all in Syria these days So you think it is ok for one country to pre-emptively invade another, even if there is no threat? If you believe all that, then enjoy the UFO hunting and give my regards to the next alien wielding a probe . So if you think it's OK for one country to support groups that causes the 9/11's of the world, you should grow up Moore used the politicians own words against them . When Ms Rice is shaking her head and saying that there are WMD - do you believe her words or her body language? Bush practising his 'concerned' look before a national address, only to give a boyish smirk - which was the real emotion? Where I come from, actions speak louder than words - especially the words of a politician . No comments, obviously No WMD have been found in Iraq and the administration lied about why they invaded Iraq . There were no mobile laboratories & there was no anthrax . There was no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda, and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 . Must I provide more examples and links? See previous comment As Qyiet mentioned, Moore hasn't been sued so where is the 'crap'? I concede Moore has an 'interesting' method of delivering his message, but it doesn't undermine his points or weaken his argument . What's next from Bush and his cronies? A strategic withdrawal from Iraq via Iran? Halliburton to get the next contract to investigate the missing billion$ in Iraq? Halliburton is now profiteering from Katrina - aren't there any other general contract companies in the US? Surely I don't need to explain the link between Cheney & Halliburton? You really think after all the crap they got over Iraq they will touch another country - I don't think so . Quote: Originally Posted by SurferJoe46 but I do feel that in all fairness, there are some things that are just plain nasty and vitrolic in the statements made here by a couple of . . . . . persons . . . . . . . . ahem! The reason there are 'unfavourable opinions' towards your administration Joe (and like Veale, I'm more than happy to debate this over a cold beer) is because of greed, lies / 'mis-information', an unprovoked invasion of another country and the double standards . Double standards? Wasn't Bush going to wipe out evil and tyranny wherever it lurked? What about Zimbabwe? What about Burma? What about Palestine? Nothing happened there - plus aren't the Koreans trying to 'build WMD' of the nuclear variety? Did Bush intervene in any of these situations? Nope . So why Iraq? See above There's nothing nasty or 'vitrolic' - these are facts . Unpleasant? Yes . Hard to accept? Yes . You may not like them but they are facts (and it's nothing personal) . Your view of facts and mine differ a bit - yours coming from mainline news groups and reports, mine from other sources . Let's just say I beg to differ You speak of the quiet or the moral majority - these are the very people who re-elected the self-styled 'war president' (quote : "I'm a war President") in times of peace . There is no war on terror - there is no terror and your homeland is not under threat! Don't get brain-washed by the BS & 'spin' . Oh so 9/11 did not happen . Next you will tell me the Americans orchestrated 9/11 themselves . These are thinly veiled excuses to rob ordinary Americans (& other inhabitants of this planet) of their civil liberties while a privileged few gorge themselves, like pigs in a trough, on the excesses earned from oil and war . Need I say more? This has nothing to do with jealousy, American products, or envy . Some people have actually woken up and smelt the coffee - and it doesn't smell too good if you get too close! Oh please spare me the claptrap - you obviously haven't been close enough .	sarel (2490)
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