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| Thread ID: 61781 | 2005-09-16 08:17:00 | Torture Is Valid? | Winston001 (3612) | PC World Chat |
| Post ID | Timestamp | Content | User | ||
| 388719 | 2005-09-17 03:08:00 | ... Currently what happens is that the US removes terrorist suspects from a Western country to Jordan/Saudi/Egypt where the officials aren't quite so squeamish about their methods. So it is argued that we should be honest and approve active interrogation in our own jurisdictions. we?. The most "moral" users of torture, the Catholoic Inquisition, came to the conclusion, after extensive research, that the best reason for not using torture is that IT DOESN'T BLOODY WORK. Use torture, and you will get the answers you want. They will rarely be true. If you want to use torture to "defend" your "civilisation and moral superiority" against anyone who you suspect might not agree with you, where the hell is your superiority? The London underground bombing is a brilliant example of the double standards. The privatisation of the British rail system has killed more passengers than terrorists. The Liverpool Station crash alone killed more. Safety costs money. When your responsibility is to shareholders, you save money on non-essentials like safety. I diddn't see any reports of the boards of directors being shot or even arrested. The commission of enquiry was issued with big buckets of whitewash. |
Graham L (2) | ||
| 388720 | 2005-09-17 04:47:00 | Use torture, and you will get the answers you want . They will rarely be true . Not only that Graham, but if you a paranoid enough to think you need to use torture, you won't believe a word you are told anyway so the poor blighter suffers in vain . Speaking of in vain, I am waiting to see some coherent arguments against the use of truth drugs . No terrorist/agent works in a total vacuum, they all have contact methods for communication up or down (otherwise what's the point in being there?) so there is a path that can be tracked . IMHO, those who would prefer physical or mental coercion over the use of drugs to extract information are protecting their personal streak of sadism, not any notional rights of the individual . The Yanks could have emptied Guantanamo Bay in a couple of weeks if they had used the right methods, and best of all, their prisoners wouldn't even remember being interrogated so there would be no unnecessary trauma for the innocent . Cheers Billy 8-{) :2cents: |
Billy T (70) | ||
| 388721 | 2005-09-17 06:03:00 | Not only that Graham, but if you a paranoid enough to think you need to use torture, you won't believe a word you are told anyway so the poor blighter suffers in vain . Speaking of in vain, I am waiting to see some coherent arguments against the use of truth drugs . No terrorist/agent works in a total vacuum, they all have contact methods for communication up or down (otherwise what's the point in being there?) so there is a path that can be tracked . IMHO, those who would prefer physical or mental coercion over the use of drugs to extract information are protecting their personal streak of sadism, not any notional rights of the individual . The Yanks could have emptied Guantanamo Bay in a couple of weeks if they had used the right methods, and best of all, their prisoners wouldn't even remember being interrogated so there would be no unnecessary trauma for the innocent . Cheers Billy 8-{) :2cents: Not an argument against truth drugs per se, but a general one against obtaining information from captured enemy operatives . There is far too much risk of obtaining planted bad information - you can only obtain information that the captive has, which maybe nothing, or which may be deliberately false . Modern terrorism is characterised by suicide bombers and young, impressionable men tricked into carrying out attacks . The core team of leaders are isolated from the foot soldiers . I suppose that is why the Americans are no closer to destroying Al Qaeda and its leaders, nor the Israelis in destroying Hamas, the PLO etc, despite the number of captives they have interrogated . I note that the majority of terrorists nowadays were trained by the best in the business - the CIA, the NSA, the KGB, Mossad, DGSE and British Intelligence, or their proxies in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Libya, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Jordan, South Africa, etc . I suppose these terrorists know all about torture and truth drugs, and have countermeasures against them . |
vinref (6194) | ||
| 388722 | 2005-09-17 06:40:00 | Wouldn't their counter measure be suicide? Seems to be effective,no chance of interagating a person liquified and spread over 400m.... |
Metla (12) | ||
| 388723 | 2005-09-17 07:26:00 | Wouldn't their counter measure be suicide? Seems to be effective,no chance of interagating a person liquified and spread over 400m . . . . LOL Metla But strange as it may seem, dead men often do tell tales, even the liquified ones . The Brits and the Yanks got useful information from distributed remains . In the case of the original World Trade Center bombing many years ago (not a suicide I might add) the big break-through came when they found part of an axle from the truck that had its ID number intact . That finally led them to the bombers . The Brits found credit cards on their suicide bombers, and similar clues have led to the breaking of previous suicide cells . Just tracking the explosives used can be a valuable pointer . Cheers Billy 8-{) |
Billy T (70) | ||
| 388724 | 2005-09-17 10:04:00 | So what is new about men being tortured. It all started when Eve decided to practice on Adam !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PJ :D :D | Poppa John (284) | ||
| 388725 | 2005-09-18 07:25:00 | Thankyou everyone for your contributions. I wasn't sure whether this topic would be of interest. Government approved torture is a very hard pill for us to swallow which speaks well for our attitudes. I use the term "we" to mean the liberal democratic West. Coercive interrogation need not involve pulling fingernails out but the discussion tends to jump to the extreme. Quite understandable. The point is that innocent people die in conflicts, not just soldiers. Morally we owe a duty to innocent citizens to protect them from harm. So some form of torture is morally justifiable if it saves those people from harm. Incidentally this topic is known as the "Dirty Harry" school of rights. :D As to sodium pentathol, I've always understood that the results are variable and unreliable, but agree that it deserves investigation. I suppose the promoters of torture tend to be looking for a quick answer to questions rather than a considered medical intervention. It is also true that terrorists use small separated groups so individual knowledge is limited. So what? Having captured a suspect the police can't know where he stands in the chain so need to discover what he knows quickly. Modern terrorists tend to be passionate young men. They are not trained to resist interrogation. Why bother when they go to Allah once the bomb explodes. |
Winston001 (3612) | ||
| 388726 | 2005-09-20 06:37:00 | Not only that Graham, but if you a paranoid enough to think you need to use torture, you won't believe a word you are told anyway so the poor blighter suffers in vain. Speaking of in vain, I am waiting to see some coherent arguments against the use of truth drugs. No terrorist/agent works in a total vacuum, they all have contact methods for communication up or down (otherwise what's the point in being there?) so there is a path that can be tracked. IMHO, those who would prefer physical or mental coercion over the use of drugs to extract information are protecting their personal streak of sadism, not any notional rights of the individual. The Yanks could have emptied Guantanamo Bay in a couple of weeks if they had used the right methods, and best of all, their prisoners wouldn't even remember being interrogated so there would be no unnecessary trauma for the innocent. Cheers Billy 8-{) :2cents: They may use the truth drug,how would we know? |
Cicero (40) | ||
| 388727 | 2005-09-22 05:48:00 | I agree with Tazz. They could have the guys from The Rock (radio station) on speed dial to come in and deal with them. |
Rob99 (151) | ||
| 388728 | 2005-09-22 10:03:00 | Spot on Mr L. Terry, a wee pick "Torture has always been with us and is part of human behaviour." I'm not sure if human behaviour is the right term or whether you meant it the way I'm reading it but, most people find such things as torture and violence to ones fellow man kind of difficult to carry out on an every day basis, in a second nature type of way. Would aberrant or even deviant behaviour better describe such things, or exclude the word us? Your right Winnie, it makes some of us feel uncomfortable. |
Murray P (44) | ||
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