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Thread ID: 61781	2005-09-16 08:17:00	Torture Is Valid?	Winston001 (3612)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
388709	2005-09-16 10:57:00	Theres two sides to every story. If you agree that we should torture terrorists to get information then you have to agree that terrorists can torture our boys to get their information too. After all, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.... People just dont take up arms for the hell of it. They do it because they really believe in what theyre fighting for. Unless there a merc.	lazydog (148)
388710	2005-09-16 11:08:00	The Brazillian is a good example bob, he didn't run from the police, that was their initial story which was later admitted by the police chief to be false, like the jumping over the barrier. There are many examples of innocents being rounded up and tortured by regimes of one sort or another. Just because the CIA/FBI or other agency gets hold of someone doesn't automatically mean they are guilty. You have to ask yourself where does it all end?	Terry Porritt (14)
388711	2005-09-16 11:12:00	Gestapo type interrogation isn't being advocated by most commentators. Torture is a bit of a misnomer anyway. What is meant, at least by moderates, is interrogation using psychological and physical discomfort. For example, sleep deprivation, standing for hours, being naked, cold, lots of bright lights. The thought of this makes me shudder but if it had to be done to uncover a terrorist cell, then maybe the greater good is served.	Winston001 (3612)
388712	2005-09-16 11:43:00	Correction : the Brazilian didn't run from the police (www.telegraph.co.uk) - he walked onto the train and took a seat. The police fabricated the running / vaulting story. How do you explain that to his family? "Oops sorry about that. Another cuppa anyone?" As for torture? Who here would willingly subject themselves to torture if they knew they were innocent? Any one? "Believe me, I'm innocent, honestly!". "Yes sir, we just want to make sure, now this will hurt a bit." Put yourself in a suspect's shoes. Admittedly Winstone's example is pretty extreme but to haul suspects off to another country (read Guantanamo and other 'facilities') and 'interrogate' (is this a euphemism for torture?) and hold without trial for an indeterminate period is unacceptable. To take this to another level (i.e. to torture) is barbaric. I'm with Billy for truth 'serums' as an alternative to torture. And to reiterate previous posters, we reap what we sow so be prepared for the consequences. What administration or government wouldn't abuse such a power? The EU charter of human rights (www.europarl.eu.int) prohibits torture (Article 4 : No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.) My 2c Andrew Late edit : this post was prepared using the word 'torture' literally, not the 'discomfort' mentioned by Winston - I was a tad slow with my reply....	andrew93 (249)
388713	2005-09-16 13:47:00	Torture no longer works against well-organised individuals or organisation that plan and/or carry out acts of mass murder, destruction or fear-mongering today because thay use tacics that limit the information that can be acquired through torture. Operatives are usually given just enough information to carry out their operations but no more, or they are expected to die in the course of their operations. And this information is almost certainly not enough to re-construct the whole plan. There are exceptions to this of course - there are sloppy terrorists. Despite the number of (rumoured) incidences of torture by the US and its allies, the major terrorist networks continue to persist or even thrive. There are tools that are far more sophisticated - in both an operational and moral sense - than torture. This is especially true of First World countries. Surveillance and good intelligence, coupled with fair and just foreign, trade and development policies, go a very very long way in mitigating the threats of terrorism that ail the West today. It has been rumoured that the US did not possess Arabic-speaking intelligence analysts, and still may not to this day. They are dependent on "allies", who have told them horsesh*t like "Iraqi WMDs" etc. In this day and age, torture is used mostly as a deterrent more than a tool for gathering intelligence. The torturers in China, North Korea, most African countries, most Islamic regimes, most third-world countries, blah blah blah, torture not only the suspects, but also their wives, children, parents, friends, complete strangers - as a warning against questioning authority. The West should abandon torture, and resort to more sophisticated and humane ways to acquire information. In Winston's example about the nuclear device in the middle of the city - torture would not help. Anyone or organisation sophisticated enough to acquire a nuclear device is sophisticated enough to resist torture.	vinref (6194)
388714	2005-09-16 20:42:00	Anyone or organisation sophisticated enough to acquire a nuclear device is sophisticated enough to resist torture. Nobody can resist truth drugs and their knowledge leads directly back down (or up) the chain of command. IMHO it is inhumane (to aggressors and victims) not to use them. Torture is so last millennium. Cheers Billy 8-{)	Billy T (70)
388715	2005-09-17 00:57:00	Nobody can resist truth drugs and their knowledge leads directly back down (or up) the chain of command. IMHO it is inhumane (to aggressors and victims) not to use them. Torture is so last millennium. Cheers Billy 8-{) What I meant by "resisting torture" includes "need to know" tactics as well, meaning that operatives are given just enough information and no more. Torture is useless against this. There is always the possibility that operatives are deliberately given false information by their masters, so that torturers get worse than nothing - they get bad information. Do these truth-serums really work? I used to think they were a bit like hypnotism - more stuff for the movies than in real life.	vinref (6194)
388716	2005-09-17 01:02:00	That just means they have to capture and torture the right person, and that has always been the case. You can't extract what isn't there, so go higher up the ladder. As I said, this has always been the case,nothing new under the sun.	Metla (12)
388717	2005-09-17 01:12:00	Or alternativly you round up and torture as many of them as you can catch, extract all the little bits of info and put it all together to make a big picture, then its a case of taking a punt. Generally people will know far more useful info then just their specif orders.....	Metla (12)
388718	2005-09-17 02:53:00	Do these truth-serums really work? I used to think they were a bit like hypnotism - more stuff for the movies than in real life. Yes Billy 8-{)	Billy T (70)
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