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Thread ID: 62303	2005-10-03 23:38:00	Mark Steyn and Abu Bakir Bashir on Islam	vinref (6194)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
393134	2005-10-04 21:35:00	You expect to much 001,remember,ignorance is bliss.	Cicero (40)
393135	2005-10-04 21:45:00	I think the US hasn't actually paid their UN dues for years. Anyway, I don't know that it's about the the big decadent profligate US being predatory with all these simple hardworking frugal third world countries. Places like Indonesia have heaps of rich and a huge middle class and yet at the time of the first Bali bombings there were these radical Islamists saying the US kept them poor. Sounds like the bullsh*t blame game to me. It's just as muich the policies of their own people in their own country who are responsible for the distribution of wealth. The relgious element has become merged with the ant-US or anti-West movement as the source of everything bad which is about as sensible as the Nazis saying the Jews were the source of everything bad in Gernany in the 30s. What's going to happen I dont know. How can you fight against nutters who believe they're on the fast trrack to martyr's Heaven. (And no one has ever complained) Religion is altogether bunkum, time we all out-grew it and sorted things amonsgt ourselves. SIDE NOTE: It's never come out in the news anywhere that I've seen but one of the tenets of Isalm is the three great stages of it's develoment. First: Mahommed. Second: Six - Seven hundred yerars after that was the Carolingian Empire the high point of Arab?Muslim knowledge . Third: Another six/seven hundred years is The Ascension of Islam, which is about now. Nothing much has been made of this and nobody talks about it but it's part of Muslim teaching just the like the Second Coming for the followers of Lebanese fairy tales.	mark c (247)
393136	2005-10-04 22:11:00	I think the US hasn't actually paid their UN dues for years. Anyway, I don't know that it's about the the big decadent profligate US being predatory with all these simple hardworking frugal third world countries. Places like Indonesia have heaps of rich and a huge middle class and yet at the time of the first Bali bombings there were these radical Islamists saying the US kept them poor. Sounds like the bullsh*t blame game to me. It's just as muich the policies of their own people in their own country who are responsible for the distribution of wealth. The relgious element has become merged with the ant-US or anti-West movement as the source of everything bad which is about as sensible as the Nazis saying the Jews were the source of everything bad in Gernany in the 30s. What's going to happen I dont know. How can you fight against nutters who believe they're on the fast trrack to martyr's Heaven. (And no one has ever complained) Religion is altogether bunkum, time we all out-grew it and sorted things amonsgt ourselves. SIDE NOTE: It's never come out in the news anywhere that I've seen but one of the tenets of Isalm is the three great stages of it's develoment. First: Mahommed. Second: Six - Seven hundred yerars after that was the Carolingian Empire the high point of Arab?Muslim knowledge . Third: Another six/seven hundred years is The Ascension of Islam, which is about now. Nothing much has been made of this and nobody talks about it but it's part of Muslim teaching just the like the Second Coming for the followers of Lebanese fairy tales. Here here. The leaders and spokespersons for radical Islamists have never used poverty as justification for their actions. Many of them are wealthy or well educated from middle class backgrounds, or are clearly government sponsored. Osama bin Laden is a multi-millionaire and his cohorts in Al Qaeda are not far behind. Those that carried out the 9/11 attack were educated in the best universities in the US and Europe - try applying for a place at these universities and your eyes will water when they quote you the costs. Try finding out the cost for flying lessons. And remember the Nazis and their myths of greatness? They were the Third Reich, where the first was the Roman Empire, and the second was the unification of Germany under the Kaiser.	vinref (6194)
393137	2005-10-05 01:40:00	Care to enlarge on that Murray? The US provides - by itself - 24% of the regular United Nations budget . Far beyond what is fair or equitable . Quite why, I do not understand . But it seems to me that the US is giving the Third World food, medicine, peacekeeping troops, and funding the UN organisation . Yes the Yanks make bumbling mistakes . They have an open society and are easy to criticise . But in essence they are bighearted and generous . I'm talking more the current US regime, although we have seen similar over the years . IMO, the US with it's power and influence needs to excersise more care and subtlety in it's foriegn policy . Unsurprisingly, it's policy is heavily influenced by political/ethnic and business/resources lines . It is my opinion that the policy is too heavily influenced by these lobbies and, it is that which has led to the "bumbling mistakes" you mention, which seem to be more prevelant under the current admin than the last . The US is a grudging participant in the UN . They'd not be there if they did not have right of veto, which they regularly exercise whether out front or in the back room . If I was asked, would I prefer the US as a meddling super power or, say, the Chinese or Saudi's, I'd say give me the good old US of A every time . By and large they have done a pretty fair job of leading the world, but don't tell me not to be critical when I think (erroniously or not) they are being cocks . You expect to much 001,remember,ignorance is bliss . Hey Cic, too much hook, not enough bait champ and, what you do have on there is stale :lol:	Murray P (44)
393138	2005-10-05 01:50:00	To raise the debate to a new level: Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed in an accident' "OH DEAR, GOD NO!!!", George W. Bush exclaims. "That's terrible!!" His staff, stunned by this display of emotion, nervously watching as their president sits with his head in hands. Clearly devastated, he looks up and asks.........."How many is a Brazillion??!" :xmouth:	Murray P (44)
393139	2005-10-05 01:50:00	Fair enough Murray P. I think the US (and maybe the world) is now beginnig to get the repercussions of the US policy of "What is good for US business is good for the US." Short term monetary gains have taken precedence over long term stability and security gains. (Another reason not to vote National)	mark c (247)
393140	2005-10-05 04:48:00	Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed in an accident' "OH DEAR, GOD NO!!!", George W. Bush exclaims. "That's terrible!!" His staff, stunned by this display of emotion, nervously watching as their president sits with his head in hands. Clearly devastated, he looks up and asks.........."How many is a Brazillion??!" Heard that one yesterday, it's pretty good. :D I agree with some of the other posts above. The US is by no means perfect, but they seem to be the only country (I guess you could include Britain and Australia as well )which actually has the guts to try and do something about terrorism even if it does increase their risk of being a target. Short term monetary gains have taken precedence over long term stability and security gains. (Another reason not to vote National) I don't know that you could say the US's economic policies are short term. They didn't become the biggest power overnight. I also disagree with your last point. Boosting New Zealand's economic capacity would not directly affect NZ's foreign policy. Technically you are letting terrorists win if you try to hinder you economic progress to try and blend in with other poor countries... :2cents:	bob05 (8721)
393141	2005-10-05 04:57:00	1 . love the joke . 2 . Don't confuse the war in Iraq with a war against terrorism . They're not the same thing . 3 . I don't mean we should "blend in with other poor countries" . We arn't a poor country anyway . We are way up there near the top . The US has (even by it's own admission . cf Condaleza Rice in Israel earlier tbis year) got a track record of supporting regimes that were friendly to US business interests, regardless of other interests . This is what I mean by the chickens coming home to explode .	mark c (247)
393142	2005-10-05 06:47:00	Anyway, I don't know that it's about the the big decadent profligate US being predatory with all these simple hardworking frugal third world countries . Places like Indonesia have heaps of rich and a huge middle class and yet at the time of the first Bali bombings there were these radical Islamists saying the US kept them poor . Sounds like the bullsh*t blame game to me . It's just as muich the policies of their own people in their own country who are responsible for the distribution of wealth . The relgious element has become merged with the ant-US or anti-West movement as the source of everything bad which is about as sensible as the Nazis saying the Jews were the source of everything bad in Gernany in the 30s . Well said Mark . The US has (even by it's own admission . cf Condaleza Rice in Israel earlier tbis year) got a track record of supporting regimes that were friendly to US business interests, regardless of other interests . Again, fair comment . Unfortunately business is often amoral . Look at neutral Sweden - sells machine guns without a hint of embarrassment to Third World dictators . Indeed anyone with the cash . I have no sympathy for the US supporting some of these regimes - although I understand it . Saudi is a case in point . A type of absolute monarchy where the average citizen doesn't receive a fair share of the oil revenues . A nation ripe for an Islamic uprising . The official US response is that they are working diplomatically to encourage changes . I have no doubt this is true - after all the Saudi aristocracy are often Harvard/Oxbridge educated and can read the writing on the wall . But the US isn't the only country turning a blind eye . The British and French suffer from myopia too .	Winston001 (3612)
393143	2005-10-05 06:53:00	Should have lobbed an A Bomb at the French years ago . They had no right to do what they did to us, It was an act that tore open our softunder belly and repurcustions should have been immediate and hard hitting . Damn it, I can understand the Aussies or S . A doing it, but for the French to knock us out of the world cup is a disgrace . :illogical Muhahahahaha .	Metla (12)
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