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Thread ID: 62649	2005-10-14 20:00:00	Evolutıon????	farukmert (9073)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
396295	2005-10-18 04:46:00	An interesting debate but bear with me while I relate a story I once read. Apologies for the long read but this is highly condensed and 100% relevant to this topic. The story is titled "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov first published in 1956. The year is 2061 and a couple of bored operators ask Multivac "How can the net amount of entropy of the Universe be massively decreased?". Now Multivac is a super-computer like you've never seen before, it was self-adjusting & self-correcting, with miles and miles of relays and circuits buried deep beneath the Earth's surface. A few days prior Multivac had "flipped the switch" on global solar energy such that humanity could turn off all power stations etc. Which got people thinking about entropy and how one day the Sun's energy would run out - hence the question from the bored operators. BUT, Multivac didn't answer this question - the one and only question it couldn't answer.... Anyway, moving forward many thousands of years when a similar question was asked of "Microvac". Microvac is a mobile computer fitted into all space ships, that was inter-connected back to the "Planetary AC's" (AC being Automatic Computer) which were built by Multivac. When asked how to "turn the stars back on" Microvac once again gave the same answer "There is insufficient data for a meaningful answer". Anyway, moving forward a long long way, when humanity had almost colonised the Galaxy and it was almost full, the Galactic Council started to consider the same entropy question - they couldn't go on colonising Galaxies forever so how did one reverse entropy? Whilst the Galactic AC had solved countless problems, once again it stalled on this question. Which takes us to "Zee Prime" - an example of a perfect human who has transcended the need for a material body and whose mind floats in space interacting with other minds. The Universe is now full and stars are dying. Universal AC, which exists in hyperspace, can pinpoint where the original Galaxy and Sun used to be. Disturbed by the loss of the original star, Zee Prime asked Universal AC "How may the stars be kept from dying?". Once again, the Universal AC is unable to answer. Finally, 'Man' was mentally one, but consisting of trillions & trillions of ageless bodies. The Universe was dying. Stars were being built from collected atomic particles, but Man knew that eventually these too would run out. Man once again asked the entropy question of Cosmic AC. When the Cosmic AC was unable to answer, Man instructed AC to continue collecting data. After many trillion years, the Universe was almost dead. The Galaxies had died, and space grew black. There were insufficient atomic particles to collect to create a new star. The final star was dying. After considering the entropy question one last time, and AC was once again unable to answer, Man fused with AC just as the final star faded. Matter and energy had ended, and with it space and time. AC only existed to answer this one question that it had been unable to answer for tens of trillions of years. AC would not release consciousness until this final question had been answered. There was no further data to collect, but not all of the collected data had yet been correlated. A timeless interval was spent correlating this data. It came to pass that AC learnt how to reverse entropy but there was no Man to whom AC might give the answer. For a timeless interval, AC thought best how to deal with this. The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what was once the Universe and brooded over what was now chaos. Step by step, AC organised the programme and said "Let there be light!" And there was light....	andrew93 (249)
396296	2005-10-18 06:25:00	Nice one Andrew, read it years ago. So there was an earlier Universe - I knew it. :D	Winston001 (3612)
396297	2005-10-18 06:40:00	I say this,always beware of one who knows. Apart from me of course. :)	Cicero (40)
396298	2005-10-18 06:46:00	Some interesting thoughts Winston001 . But do you seriously believe that the thought that "god is watching" ever deterred anyone from commiting a dishonest act? A nephew of mine tells me he was taught that god has a computer . "a million times" more powerful than anything on earth and he keeps personal files on all of us . At least god is keeping up with technology . I wonder what OS he is using? :lol: We could equate the concept of God to a person's conscience . Equivalent to the Superego - and the Devil is the Id . In fact these models from psychology fit well . And yes, for the average person, their conscience will normally stop them doing wrong . But if the conscience is subverted by other teachings then the concept of wrong, being elastic, moves so as to allow otherwise criminal behaviour . The easiest example is the abuse in Abu Gharib prison by US soldiers . The same soldiers wouldn't dream of treating fellow Americans like that but "learned" that this was acceptable for Iraqi prisoners . The benefit of God is that he is external to the individual, so believing that he is watching over your shoulder means you might pause rather than do wrong . This is easier to deal with than having to face up to the fact that we have to police ourselves .	Winston001 (3612)
396299	2005-10-18 06:54:00	The trouble with this Winston is that it implies that someone who does not believe in God does not have conscience . I believe that all humans have a conscience inherently . It can be trained and developed to varying degrees but to say that you don't have one without religion is not correct IMO . Agreed . Humanists are perfectly capable of making the same moral judgements and being valuable members of society . In fact, better than some religious people - Graham Capil comes to mind . :mad: I'm with Bruce on this topic . We must respect the views of others . We don't have to agree with them, but trashing their beliefs is discourteous and unproductive .	Winston001 (3612)
396300	2005-10-18 07:02:00	And yes, for the average person, their conscience will normally stop them doing wrong. But if the conscience is subverted by other teachings then the concept of wrong, being elastic, moves so as to allow otherwise criminal behaviour. The easiest example is the abuse in Abu Gharib prison by US soldiers. The same soldiers wouldn't dream of treating fellow Americans like that but "learned" that this was acceptable for Iraqi prisoners. The benefit of God is that he is external to the individual, so believing that he is watching over your shoulder means you might pause rather than do wrong. This is easier to deal with than having to face up to the fact that we have to police ourselves. I don't agree with that entirely. Even when conditioned that "bad is good" still deep down, we know right from wrong. I honestly think that in the Abu Gharib prison example, the soldiers knew they were doing wrong but thought they could get away with it because of the prevailing attitude towards Iraqi's. When tried, they fell back on the "just following orders" excuse. And when you really look closely, rather than causing believers to pause before wrongdoing, Christian belief has been used as an excuse to justify atrocities for centuries. And in many cases the church provides absolution from said atrocities thru various rituals of forgiveness, sometimes even concealing extreme wrongdoing to preserver their image (the JW's are particularly guilty of this, as of course are others). In my view the world would be a better place without religion.	Mackin_NZ (6958)
396301	2005-10-18 07:12:00	We must respect the views of others. We don't have to agree with them, but trashing their beliefs is discourteous and unproductive. OK, I'll shut up about the JW's then. But I wonder if you'd be so lenient if someone you love had died because the JW rules prevented them from receiving life-saving medical treatment. A rule they have since changed I might add. OK, shutting up now. :xmouth:	Mackin_NZ (6958)
396302	2005-10-18 07:25:00	Mackin_NZ, i sympathise, Without going too far into the story, i shall say that i too have lost a friend due to the meddling of the fanatic group. Without such "help" she would still be alive today. It leaves a very bitter taste. :stare:	personthingy (1670)
396303	2005-10-18 07:29:00	Would someone like to sum up,what 88 posts has taught us,like something new.	Cicero (40)
396304	2005-10-18 07:30:00	Tough one Mackin, you have my sympathies. And I agree with much of your post. One of the problems with these arguments is that we focus on Christianity, when there are at least 4 other major religions which need to be considered too. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. Probably the biggest was the murder and mayhem when Pakistan and India were partitioned in 1947. Hindus against Muslims and it is estimated that 5 million died. en.wikipedia.org	Winston001 (3612)
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