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Thread ID: 62775	2005-10-19 03:47:00	Is there a doctor in the house?	JJJJJ (528)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
397603	2005-10-19 07:55:00	Osteoporosis is one of the bone conditions I have and partly the reason for my disability. . Thanks Joe, What I am realy interested in is the associated pain. The inability to get out of a chair unaided. Being unable to even get out of bed without help. Pain killers do absolutely nothing. Something realy strong kills the pain for an hour or two, but then it's back. Of course the pain is caused by numerous stress fractures in the spine. Doctors say the only cure is time. Medication will control the osteo, but I doubt if it will be enough to prevent further fractures. Got any thoughts on that?	JJJJJ (528)
397604	2005-10-19 09:45:00	My brother has a very rare skin phenomena, only a handful of people in this country suffer from the same condition. He found a support group on the 'net has been a tremendous help. Perhaps you could find a similar group for osteoporosis. Regards, Marnie	Marnie (4574)
397605	2005-10-19 18:32:00	Thanks Joe, What I am realy interested in is the associated pain . The inability to get out of a chair unaided . Being unable to even get out of bed without help . Pain killers do absolutely nothing . Something realy strong kills the pain for an hour or two, but then it's back . Of course the pain is caused by numerous stress fractures in the spine . Doctors say the only cure is time . Medication will control the osteo, but I doubt if it will be enough to prevent further fractures . Got any thoughts on that? I am in a pickle here to say that there is any pain at all associated with my osteoporosis, but that opinion might be in for a change . Let me explain: We all know that there is a common misconception with the "she fell and broke her hip" . . . it usually isn't so . The tragic fact in most cases is this way: "she broke her hip and then fell" . Osteoporosis causes bone thinning, and contrary to old wive's tales, bones do not radiate pain to the sensory portion of the brain . In my anecdotal position though, I FEEL there is some new evidence that there MIGHT be an exception to that statement . Primarily, please remember here that medicine is not a science . . . it is a practice seeking rules and physical ramifications . The anecdotal part I have to state is that I FEEL . . . in my left abdominal quarter the pain of my left hip degradation in the painful form of a vague constant ache that gets worse with the passage of the day/hours . I may have to reconsider the bone-pain scenerio soon . On to the question of inability to rise from a position because of pain from osteo . Hmmmmmmm . . let me think about my situation . . . . . OK . . there IS a lot of pain as I arise in the am, and then there are times that Vicadin or NSAID's will not handle . I take Salsalate and other NSAID's for the pain of arthritus, not for the osteoporosis . . I THINK! The bounderies seem to blur for me at the point in which I find myself now . But, no . . . not at this time do I associate pain with osteoporosis, unless I have fallen and then received pain from breaking or bruising something . In my own case, I have tried a new venue . . HRT . Women have this osteo-problem b/o lowering estrogen production at menopause, but I am currently on a mild form of HRT for two frontline conditions: Osteoporosis and BPH (the GUY thing with our prostates) . Taking . 625mg/day of Premarin has lessened the BPH a lot in the short time I have taken it, and the prognosis is very good that I can have the prostate of a teenager after treatment, and NO, I am not in menopause! Now as to the osterporosis . . . we all KNOW that this is a woman's disease/condition, caused by, again, the loss of estrogen . Interestingly, using estrogen has been counter-indicated for women for a lot of reasons: increased risk of cervical/utero/mammary and fallopian-type cancers . Since most natal males do not have such equiptment, there is little or no risk to harm for them by taking estrogen and it's derivatives . Otherworldly as it may seem . men are at a great risk to this only women get it condition now . The ranks of osteoporosis sufferers in the male quarter is on the increase . This might be from advanced CAT or MRI scans that are becoming more common as a baseline test for more people in the US; I cannot speak for NZ about this situation . It might also be from the air we breathe or the chemicals we used to whiten our teeth . Then again, I have the Veterans' Hospital to fall back onto for all my medical problems, and they are very aggressive in that line! Perhaps, this is not the answer you are specifically seeking . I fully agree that as I get older I feel more pain and suspect it is really from my arthritus, not from the osteoporosis . Now . . don't get me wrong . . . osteo may mitigate the arthritic condition and exascerbate the associate pains . Again, since the bones in and of themselves have no neural transmitters to tell the brain that they are experiencing pain, there probably is a link to pain from the surrounding tissues that because of the vagueness of what they perceive and transmit to the brain, the brain then just assumes "intense heat or burning sensations" when it gets insufficient data from the transmitting organ/tissue . The default pain sensation is heat when other sensory values/input is missing . . . a wonderful blessing and a malediction at the same time . But the brain KNOWS something is wrong!	SurferJoe46 (51)
397606	2005-10-19 18:50:00	My brother has a very rare skin phenomena, only a handful of people in this country suffer from the same condition . He found a support group on the 'net has been a tremendous help . Perhaps you could find a similar group for osteoporosis . Regards, Marnie Marnie . . there are such groups available . As an aside here let me state that although some of us are very medically-astute, we are just here like the rest of everyone else . . seeking a small shelter with a group that accepts us for what we are and choses to be open-minded enough to be verbal with others no matter what . I see no difference in a person who has bad eyesight compared to another who is wheelchair confined from either genetic predisposition or accidental involvement . We are all sentient persons here (sentient = language-speaking, ie verbal skills or written), who come from a broad paintbrush of life and it's experiences . Some are better at computer wizardry, others at commiseration for those who are less fortunate, medically or monetarily or in any other gifted or non-gifted way . I don't want to turn this into a medically-oriented posting site, and as you so coyly hinted "take this discussion to another site" by saying "Perhaps you could find a similar group for osteoporosis" (red color, mine) in your post, I feel it's all good to find out more about all who are here on a more familial manner . . . no? We can all learn from each other . . . and the learning isn't just about things that have pretty blinking lights or cd-roms or 220/110 volt switches .	SurferJoe46 (51)
397607	2005-10-19 19:04:00	Thanks Joe. The more I hear about osteo the more confused I become. Firstly it is my wife I am talking about.So the female things apply. Oriiginal diagnosis was a slipped disk. Pain appeared without warning. Good one minute, in agony the next. Back x-ray confirmed a shrinking of the width of the spine sections.But no change in the end caps. So this leaves gaps between the sections and spine is just held in place by end caps. A bone density xray confirmed osteo was the problem. What is worrying me is the fact that she thinks she is going to recover and will soon be back to her old agile self. I can understand the bone problem. What realy worries me is the almost constant pain.	JJJJJ (528)
397608	2005-10-19 19:42:00	Thanks Joe . The more I hear about osteo the more confused I become . Firstly it is my wife I am talking about . So the female things apply . Oriiginal diagnosis was a slipped disk . Pain appeared without warning . Good one minute, in agony the next . Back x-ray confirmed a shrinking of the width of the spine sections . But no change in the end caps . So this leaves gaps between the sections and spine is just held in place by end caps . A bone density xray confirmed osteo was the problem . What is worrying me is the fact that she thinks she is going to recover and will soon be back to her old agile self . I can understand the bone problem . What realy worries me is the almost constant pain . This part is one of my situations too: " Back x-ray confirmed a shrinking of the width of the spine sections . But no change in the end caps . " The docs here call it spinal stenosis . . . and it can indeed cause a lot of associated pain . The "stenosis" part indicates a narrowing of something . . . in this case the spine . This mitigates all sorts of things for her (and me) . The actual narrowing brings tremendous pressure on the spinal cord by pinching it tighter and tighter . For this, there is no chemical intervention other than painkillers . . . opiates and codeine are the choice here . BUT! there is a surgical venue open for relief . It involves the scraping out (or drilling and removing) some of the bone that is shrunken, giving the spinal cord new room to move and not be irritated by the loss of room in the hollow area of the spine . I personally have put that onto the very rear-est burner . . for consideration 'way down the line! The prognosis for that surgery is about 50/50 . Not good enough odds for me . There is also the risk of causing paralysis from the surgery . My doctor is at Loma Linda/Veterans' Hospital, and he has told me that he is the best (I like a doc with attitude!) and that he would not even consider operating on my spine . He said there are others that would, but he indicates it would just be the worst thing I could do . I am not indicating that this is the correct attitude for you or your wife to take . . . it's just my personal situation . Disc compression can also cause intense pain as it can pinch the sciatic nerve(s) and that too can be surgically altered . There is fusion of the vertebrae or installing a device to hold them in a more correct position . None of the aforementioned are good choices in my book . Usually, and in my case, there is also a lot of sciatic pain . . . never-ending and constant . In most cases, sciatica is temporary . . . induced by a cough, or a hard sneeze or pregnancy . . . a list quite long . But if you factor in spinal stenosis, the only apparant cure or relief is surgical intervention . Now, if this is the pain of which you are asking . . YES! it is real! It is also a good indicator that the end caps are not disturbed . . . you might be able to rule out arthritis that way . My docs have told me that my steps are numbered, and when I use up the last one, then I get to sit . . . permanently! I my case, the only end-view is more and more pain and bone degradation . . . there is no "coming back from" or "getting better" in this condition . I too dream and insist that I will get better . . . but the facts are negatively stacked against that . I do not believe in miraculous cures . . . . I don't rate it on any scale . There's a joke about that . . . but I think I shan't belabor it here . (That sounds so EURO!)	SurferJoe46 (51)
397609	2005-10-20 15:13:00	contrary to old wive's tales, bones do not radiate pain to the sensory portion of the brain. Again, since the bones in and of themselves have no neural transmitters to tell the brain that they are experiencing pain, Err Who told you that? It is my understanding that currently the old wives are closer to the truth. Sorry for the diversion (Of course i could be completely wrong) Cheers Niva D, Gofelda M, Devor M. Causes of pain in degenerative bone and joint disease: a lesson from vertebroplasty. Pain 105 (2003) 387–392. Haegerstam G A T. Pathophysiology of bone pain A review.Acta Orthop Scand 2001; 72 (3): 308–317.	XOtago (8656)
397610	2005-10-20 17:45:00	Err Who told you that? It is my understanding that currently the old wives are closer to the truth. Sorry for the diversion (Of course i could be completely wrong) Cheers . More details pleasel, XOtago. (Otago Medical School????)	JJJJJ (528)
397611	2005-10-20 19:39:00	As far as has been told to me by my ortho-doc, bones themselves don't have the capacity to transmit "condition(s) of wellness or illness" per se to the brain . There is the "perceived" value of pain that is the generally misunderstood factor that most people have . From the Mayo Clinic, I have a C/P here . . . notice the nociceptors and their relative pain-feeling values: # Your peripheral nerves . Your peripheral (pe-RIF-er-ul) nerves extend from your spinal cord to your skin, muscles and internal organs . These nerve fibers vary in their size and the rate at which they conduct messages to the brain . The receptors at the ends of these nerves vary as well . Some types of nerve fibers end with receptors that respond to touch, pressure, vibration, cold and warmth . Other types of nerve fibers end with nociceptors (no-sih-SEP-turs) — which are receptors that detect actual or potential tissue damage . You have millions of nociceptors in your skin, bones, joints and muscles and in the protective membrane around your internal organs . But their greatest concentration is in areas prone to injury, such as your fingers and toes . When nociceptors detect a harmful stimulus — such as the hard surface that stubbed your toe — they relay their pain messages in the form of electrical impulses along a peripheral nerve to your spinal cord and brain . Sensations of severe pain are transmitted almost instantaneously . (My note here: this is where physical damage as in snapping the bone or crushing it is involved, not the general "feelings" that people think bones can "feel" and send these messages to the brain . Aches and pains in bones that are not catastrophic are not delivered to the brain, so in actuality, the bones are not really in contact with the brain in a general situation, and therefore cannot relate age, conditions other than catastrophy, aching from osteoporosis or degenerative conditions unless the bone involved snaps, breaks or physically fails or is crushed . ) Phantom pains when legs or arms or even digits are missing, have caused some medicos to suggest there might be new corollaries to observe in this area . Most times, the pain that a person feels is supplied information from nearby tissues that DO have such communicative possibilities, as they have the required nociceptors and also general "wellness/illness" sending units . Nerves have specialized jobs, and do not usually cross-over in function . For instance, kidney pains are not genuinely "felt" in the kidneys themselves, but in the lower quadrant of the back . Most lay-persons would mistake this pain as a "pain in the back" and not in the kidneys . This misplaced pain is a real clue to a doctor as to where or what organ or tissue is actually affected . Other organs are indeed capable of this situation . Most, if not all bones fall into this catagory according to my doctor, and any pains felt in the "bones" are really not so . I concede the point that some feel things that they ascribe to their "bones" ie, "I feel a change in the weather in my bones", or "My bones ache from this dampness", or "My bones hurt in my legs" . . etc . when in actuality, they are misinterpreting the causitive agency involved . The surrounding muscles and tissues are really the signifying agents in these situations . Bones do not appear to send other than destruction and crushing pain acknowledgement to the brain, not medical or degenerative conditions .	SurferJoe46 (51)
397612	2005-10-20 23:57:00	Nope not Otago medical school. Sorry I misunderstood what you meant as to the bone 'feeling'. However I think the mdeical community are still learning about the information that the bone provides and have quoted a couple of passages from those articles to support this. 'A great deal of elegant work has been carried out over the last few decades to characterize the nociceptive afferents that innervate joint tissue, and to identify changes induced by inflammation (Schmidt, 1996). However, virtually all of this work has focused on the innervation of periosteal and capsular soft tissues of the joint. Very little is known about the functional properties of hard tissue innervation; nerve endings in the articular surfaces and underlying subchondral bone, the bone–marrow interface, afferents in bone marrow, or innervation of corresponding tissues along the bone shaft away from the joint. There are tantalizing hints that the afferent innervation of the cortex and interior (medulla) of bones may be primarily nociceptive in function and may play an important role in chronic pain in degenerative bone and joint disease. We know, for example, that although articular cartilage itself has no innervation, cancellous (spongy) and compact bone below the cartilage (subchondral bone) is invested with endings of small diameter axons (Serre et al., 1999; Mach et al., 2002). from Heagerstam article 'It may be asked whether the central processing of nociceptive information is different for bone pain. Bone nociception is probably processed by the CNS in a way similar to that in other tissues of the same mesodermal origin as joint and muscle.' from Devor article I not trying to be argumentative at all just want to point out the the science and understanding of pain mechanisms especially to do with pain is still in it's infancy. Cheers	XOtago (8656)
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