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Thread ID: 63541	2005-11-13 09:10:00	Opinion on the state of NZ military/disarmed force	JSF_enthusiast (8536)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
404084	2006-01-18 06:56:00	Always amazes me how much is exported, in spite of the governments unhelpful policies.	Cicero (40)
404085	2006-01-18 09:18:00	Hi All This has been discussed before in a previous thread along similar lines. I put my two cents in here (www.pressf1.co.nz) for those who may be interested. That is all Craig.	craigb (4884)
404086	2006-01-18 12:32:00	So how big was NZ's army in 1939, before the start of WWII? Martynz	martynz (5445)
404087	2006-01-18 22:21:00	Military readiness isn't bought or conjured overnight . Its investing in your manpower and your equipment over the long haul . . . . . which gives a nation military readiness . I like to tell this story about a US Navy left to rot . After the American Civil War, from 1865 to a 1885, the US let its Navy rot . Not one new ship was ordered . America was consumed with its Manifest Destiny, and spent most of its resources on its Army . In 1888-1889 there was a confrontation in Samoa with the Germans and the British . America sent its whole Pacific squadron of wooden hulled square rigged steamers to Samoa . Unfortunately, the British and the Germans sent better ships, steel hulled vessels . Its a good thing a huge typhoon set in, sinking all SIX of the American and German ships, which played a game of chicken in Apia harbor . Interesting, the ONE British ship rode the storm out at sea, and eventually won this show of force . Of course,after the debacle of Samoa America started building its steel navy, which ten year later won a war with Spain . Peacenik New Zealander always talk of invasion, as if it mattered . . . . . But that is not why they have their armed forces, is it? Even the Prime Minister can't see a potential threat to New Zealand . They have their armed forces to handle the small stuff: terrorism, piracy, humanitarian adventures, UN peacekeeping, fishery protection, search and rescue, keeping the sea lanes of trade open, parades, etc . , etc . Yes, New Zealand can afford an air combat force . All New Zealand has to do is spend about ten percent more on defense . . . . . Ten percent . . . . . Not billions more each year . . . . . $150 million is a clearer figure . Less than $40 per person . . . . . Their governemtn was spending $70 million per year maintaining the Skyhawks . Double that and you can afford over ten years the capital expenditure of two modern Falcons, or one Typhoon fighter per year . . . . As I noted above, the smaller nations have to be inventive in spending their defense dollars . Other smaller nations are following New Zealand's lead in purchasing multi-role sealift . Ireland, Portugal, Denmark, Norway, and Belgium . Singapore showed the way . . . . . Notice all of the above can afford an air combat force too .	MacToby (9237)
404088	2006-01-18 22:43:00	Satellites - for communication, guiding weapons [unmanned planes/vehicles], detecting enemy sites and weaponry. Biowarfare Nuclear weaponry This is what wins war and defends a country. How the hell can NZ compete with or assist with that? US is not safe and never will be while they incite hatred and have that old warmonger George Bush still president. I feel a helluva safer here than I would in US, Britain and Australia.	MMM (5660)
404089	2006-01-19 00:46:00	"When the previous government bought cream puff F-16s for a dime on a dollar, this government killed the fighter deal of the century . " Those F-16s had been sold (to a Muslim country) and paid for . It's a criminal offence for the citizens of NZ to buy stolen property . Perhaps the government thinks it should follow the same rule . We keep getting told that our trade with the US depends on our being a "military ally" . We keep getting told that we need a free trade agreement with the US, and therefore we have to get rid of our non-nuclear policies . Some of the most vocal fta advocates appear to believe that we will see a vast cargo of lamb, beef, steel, butter, etc, in containers on the deck of a nuclear aircraft carrier as it leaves after its first visit . They should ask those who have FTAs with the US . Like Canada, which has recently won a legal fight over the US's total contempt for the terms of the NAFTA . The US doesn't believe in international law, or treaties, applying to the US . This has been shown repeatedly . Agreements with the US are one way . Free trade to the US means they can export all they want to us . We can send them what they want . (Which means nothing that their taxpayers make, or grow, or import from anywhere else) .	Graham L (2)
404090	2006-01-19 04:36:00	Military conflict is a matter of perspective and always has been . To us there are EVIL terrorists that are to others, freedom fighters that are fighting a suppressive Western society, ie Invading Iraq for Oil . Once Russia was a "Evil Communist devil state" hell bent of killing us all (from the US perspective) . And thats pretty much what the Russians thought of the Americans . Best Military weapon, Obtaining both sides of the story and looking at an issue from you so called enemies perspective, oh and don't believe a dam f"ing thing you see on most Western News broadcasts (pack of story telling sensationalising tards) . Makes me sad our news media has recently started behaving the same way, even more sad so many people believe much of what they report .	Battleneter (60)
404091	2006-01-19 05:46:00	Once Russia was a "Evil Communist devil state" hell bent of killing us all (from the US perspective). And thats pretty much what the Russians thought of the Americans. Which just goes to show how wrong you can be.	Cicero (40)
404092	2006-06-14 22:38:00	Let's compare a few nations. New Zealand, population 4 million. Norway, population 4.6 million, and Denmark, population 5.4 million. New Zealand: Area total: 268,680 sq km land: 268,021 sq km water: NA Per capita income: $25,200 Defense spending: 1.0 percent of GNP Norway: Area total: 324,220 sq km land: 307,860 sq km water: 16,360 sq km Per capita income: $42,300 Defense spending: 1.9 percent of GNP Denmark: Area total: 43,094 sq km land: 42,394 sq km water: 700 sq km Per capita income:$34,600 Defense spending: 1.5 percent of GNP It appears to me if you want a higher standard of living, you should invest more on defense. In fact Denmark and Norway are very similar to New Zealand, dairy and/or sheep are a large part of their exports. A few decades ago New Zealand led the world in per capita income. What happened? Maybe Kiwis need to follow their examples and vote for better politicians. Possibly a full time monarch will help too.	MacToby (9237)
404093	2006-06-14 23:27:00	[QUOTE=Graham L]But Terry, look at what Germany managed to produce during WWII . And their factories were being bombed (at least after the bombs started going closer than five miles to the "aiming point") massively . Their industrial production actually increased throughout the war . Just a small point here . German production figures were in many cases based on what was ordered . Not what was actually delivered . Stupid YES but would you have liked to point that out to Adolf? Even Speer who was aware of the situation was reluctant . Anyway I fancy a Marine type defense force as already suggested but I also remember in 1940 when Churchill ordered NO RETREATS - NO REFUGEES (blocking roads) we stay and fight and die where we were if invaded . I was only 8 but remember the weapons we had in the house to defend ouselves . Rifles - stens and old revolvers . That policy would now give us a small badly organised army of several million . Enough to deter many invaders . We do need National Service again - even if only to get some backbone and discipline back into our young people . After all we do have some of the best teenagers etc in the world . But we are failing them . Oh - and we do need a small locally produced aircraft or something to give ground support . Darned if I can think how to do that though . Tom	Thomas01 (317)
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