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Thread ID: 64003	2005-11-29 21:08:00	Interesting article.	Cicero (40)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
408702	2005-11-29 21:08:00	www.denisdutton.com	Cicero (40)
408703	2005-11-30 00:03:00	Interesting Cic, but not wholly true . Let's take this quote for example: "It is not easy for many younger New Zealanders, including young journalists, the appreciate the hold government had attained here by the early 1980s . New Zealand had become a Stalinist Anglo-utopia, a land of where government ran industries, a bank, hotels, air, rail, ship, and bus transport, was into printing and publishing . Import licensing meant that local manufacturers, protected by some of the highest tariffs in the OECD, could force on unwilling consumers a tiny selection of shoddy clothing, shoes, and household items . " When I arrived here in 1977, I was impressed by the high quality of clothing, shoes, tramping boots and packs, woollens, carpets, household hardware like Zip saucepans, etc etc . certainly not shoddy . That was a professional judgement, my job was QA . Shoes in particular were much better value for money than in UK, and the quality in absolute terms was better, except perhaps for top quality UK shoes like Churches and a few other makes . That is not to say everything was rosy . Import licensing meant that there was an attitude in some quarters that said quality didn't matter as the public didn't know any better, and the manufacturer could sell everything they made anyway . I had a William Cable man say exactly that to me, when he came for advice about making cast iron surface plates and was told what was required in the way of heat treatment to produce a stable casting to the British Standard . When he realised that it would take a week of heat treatment, and he would need to invest in new plant, he went a bit cold on the idea, particularly when I said we would not in any way attempt to certify them unless they had the correct processing . I have other examples of poor work, but that would not be exclusive to NZ, on the contrary I'd say most manufacturers tried very hard indeed . Then there is this quote: "Employment is another area with surprises . Unemployment had begun to rise already in the 1970s, and was high levels even before the Fourth Labour Government came to power . This despite the fact the 1970s featured some of the most comical make-work schemes: for instance, the reassembly in New Zealand plants of cars that had been disassembled in Japan just so they could be put together here . The reestablishment of a genuine labour market, especially under the 1991 Employment Contracts Act, has resulted in a fall in unemployment to favourable levels by an OECD standard . " Well of course employment had begun to rise, hasn't Dutton heard of the 'OIL SHOCK'?? It wasn't just in NZ that unemployment was rising . By 1976 in the Poole area of Dorset where I lived unemployment was 13%, and the British machine tool industry had collapsed, that was why I came out here for a job . "The reestablishment of a genuine labour market, especially under the 1991 Employment Contracts Act, has resulted in a fall in unemployment to favourable levels by an OECD standard . " Well now, come on . Unemployment could hardly do otherwise than eventually fall from the 200,000 level that resulted from new right rogernomics, could it? Maybe the Employment Contracts Act resulted in many many more poorly paid part time jobs with little or no career structure in them . Eg . . 'Re-train to be a fully skilled and qualified McDonalds sandwich and counter hand' :eek: 200,000 unemployed should be compared to the approx . 470 registered unemployed, circa 1972'ish when we first enquired about NZ . So as I say interesting, has some truth in it, but some distortions . BTW, It isn't true either that fully assembled cars were actually dismantled in Japan before being shipped out as CKD . In fact I know it is not true, I've seen the body shells going through the filling and painting at Tods and GM's to know that is an untruth put in to bolster the argument . For gods sake we had enough close contact at DSIR with QA in the car industry .	Terry Porritt (14)
408704	2005-11-30 00:54:00	Good reply T. Is anything wholy true?the principal remains.!	Cicero (40)
408705	2005-11-30 01:51:00	Well, in a court of law we are exhorted to 'tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" . Maybe there are probably more lies told in a court of law than even we hear in Parliament :) New Zealand in some ways was probably as regulated as any Eastern European country, except for security. As in the 'butter' thread, a permit was required to buy and eat margarine :lol: . I was also amazed at the lack of security at DSIR, anyone, including KGB could have, and did walk in off the street. I got so fed up with this that even the Director was told to call us first before just walking into our lab with visitors! NZ must have been a real soft touch for the KGB, but everyone seemed so naive when it came to security. Edit: But NZ most likely didn't have as many MPs in the pay of the KGB as the UK did :(	Terry Porritt (14)
408706	2005-11-30 01:52:00	There were so mnany mistakes in his article that I now know not to take Dennis Dutton seriously.	mikebartnz (21)
408707	2005-11-30 03:17:00	Looks like you have a pinky mate T. It's no use,I will never understand people who think that lot in parliament know better than the market. I concede that there have to be some constraints due to the greed factor,so limited government is the way to go.	Cicero (40)
408708	2005-11-30 04:07:00	Looks like you have a pinky mate T. It's no use,I will never understand people who think that lot in parliament know better than the market. I concede that there have to be some constraints due to the greed factor,so limited government is the way to go. You would agree with what The Economist has to say under the entry about Milton Friedman :), then go to "G" and look and see what they have to say about Government, you'd agree with that too. Remember when the London School of Economics was a red-hot bed of Reds? Where are they all now? Whoops here is the link: www.economist.com	Terry Porritt (14)
408709	2005-11-30 04:38:00	You would agree with what The Economist has to say under the entry about Milton Friedman :), then go to "G" and look and see what they have to say about Government, you'd agree with that too. Remember when the London School of Economics was a red-hot bed of Reds? Where are they all now? Whoops here is the link: www.economist.com Indeed. I thought the Daily worker would have been more your cup of tea. ;)	Cicero (40)
408710	2005-11-30 04:55:00	<Cue Alanis Morisette> Ironic isn't it, since freeing up the economy, we can now buy cheap shoddy clothes or, if we have a mind, expensive shoddy clothes, by and large produced in a communist country :rolleyes: Beautiful logic that . Vehicle cost has gone down and quality has risen though, and we get those from the right sort of system, eh! :thumbs:	Murray P (44)
408711	2005-11-30 07:01:00	I thought the Daily worker would have been more your cup of tea . ;) Nah Cic, that's old hat, more into this: . clear . net . nz/pages/cpa/" target="_blank">home . clear . net . nz :) Now, you need to have a bit of perspective to understand what's what Cic . Being raised in Derbyshire gives one a very narrow outlook . Protectionism was indeed needed for New Zealand to be able to progress into manufacturing, drag itself into the 20th century, and to be able to rise above being merely an agricultural peasant society . The war of course speeded things up considerably, but even before that and subsequently, the Railways Machine Shops were one of the backbones of this country, training countless generations in fitting and turning, welding, tool making, pattern making, foundry work, design and all sorts of engineering skills . Employees from there went out and set up all sorts of small manufactures . Then during the war, DSIR received a huge shot in the arm with their high precision machine shops and tool rooms . Between them, those two organisations supercharged the manufacturing industry in this country by way of training and apprenticeships . Unfortunately, except for a bit of update in the late 60's, particularly DSIR, those machine shops were still much the same as typical 1930s setups up until the Railways sell off . The big difference in Railways was that overhead machinery belt drives had been replaced with individual electric motors for each machine tool :) Protectionism enabled industries to develop, there is no shadow of doubt about that . If left to market forces NZ would still be a peasant state with the kids still going barefoot to school . (Incidently, why is there such pride in kids going barefoot?? It is beyond me) . What went wrong is that that those ideas were carried on into the 60s and 70s when the writing for change should have indeed been on the wall . If governments had had a bit of foresight, then the necessary economic changes could have been brought in earlier with less pain, less unemployment, and less destruction . After all any fool like Douglas can come along destroy, knock down and remove . It takes someone with greater calibre, vision and imagination to rebuild with viable alternative systems that can utilise the existing skill bases without throwing people on the scrap heap . There is now a shortage of scientists, big deal, no surprise at all, the country has been living off its seed corn science-wise for the last 15 years . Vehicle cost has gone down and quality has risen though, and we get those from the right sort of system, eh! But for how long until the Japanese send all their manufacture to China too? :rolleyes: Edit: This is what you should be reading Cic: http://www . rcpbml . org . uk/	Terry Porritt (14)
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