Forum Home
PC World Chat
Thread ID: 64003	2005-11-29 21:08:00	Interesting article.	Cicero (40)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
408712	2005-11-30 17:19:00	Sorry Ter,but that has to be described as nostalgic economics,a bit like 20's music,long assigned to to the distant past where it should stay. Sad I know for those who are locked in there and can never get out. :)	Cicero (40)
408713	2005-11-30 19:01:00	Sorry Ter,but that has to be described as nostalgic economics,a bit like 20's music,long assigned to to the distant past where it should stay. Sad I know for those who are locked in there and can never get out. :) Yes, I know it is hard for you to accept Cic :) Remember this country started from nothing, where every single item down to the humble nail had to be imported. No roads, no infrastructure, no background of industrial revolution. Market forces alone would not have built the roads, and sealed roads at that, dams, elecricity supplies and grid, all the things an immigrant from the UK over the last 60 years or more would just take for granted. I don't know how long you have been here, but even as late as 1977, there were miles of unsealed major roads which are now sealed, market forces didn't seal them. So, every system has its time and place. It wasn't market forces either that brought about flush toilets, main drainage, water on tap in cities like Birmingham in the later 1800s. In the not too distant future Milton Friedman will probably be as passe as Keynes :)	Terry Porritt (14)
408714	2005-11-30 19:33:00	Yes, I know it is hard for you to accept Cic :) Remember this country started from nothing, where every single item down to the humble nail had to be imported. No roads, no infrastructure, no background of industrial revolution. Market forces alone would not have built the roads, and sealed roads at that, dams, electricity supplies and grid, all the things an immigrant from the UK over the last 60 years or more would just take for granted. I don't know how long you have been here, but even as late as 1977, there were miles of unsealed major roads which are now sealed, market forces didn't seal them. So, every system has its time and place. It wasn't market forces either that brought about flush toilets, main drainage, water on tap in cities like Birmingham in the later 1800s. In the not too distant future Milton Friedman will probably be as passé as Keynes :) If the market doesn't want flush toilets it won't get them. I would like you to think again about that. Population and the market gets you sealed roads.	Cicero (40)
408715	2005-12-01 01:03:00	Remember this country started from nothing, where every single item down to the humble nail had to be imported. No roads, no infrastructure, no background of industrial revolution. Now you know Terry which side of the fence I am going to be on but it is good to have a debate. The above sounds just like........Japan. Until Admiral Perry forced Japan to open its ports in 1853, this was a closed feudal society. Just like North Korea today. And we know which country is the economic sucess story.	Winston001 (3612)
408716	2005-12-01 01:16:00	That would be North Korea....wouldn't it? Last I heard they had the power to invade and destroy America. They must be a success....... :eek:	Metla (12)
408717	2005-12-01 02:39:00	If the market doesn't want flush toilets it won't get them . I would like you to think again about that . Population and the market gets you sealed roads . A dream world Cic . Flush toilets, sewerage, water, education etc for the masses came about because of the actions of far sighted public minded figures like Joseph Chamberlain in Birmingham for example . In other areas, disease and death forced local councils to provide social services . "In 1869 he joined the town council as a radical Liberal member for the St Paul's ward and, rising meteorically to power, became mayor in 1873, a post he held for three years . The changes he wrought were dramatic . He obtained Acts of Parliament empowering the corporation to take over the private gas and water companies and proceeded to reinvest the profits they made in public works . Dramatic improvements were made in water supply and sewerage; within a few years the number of people in the town who had to draw water from contaminated wells was halved . The streets were at last well-lit . He passed a byelaw banning the construction of back-to-back houses . Death rates began to fall . Corporation Street was built, Colmore Row was widened and a start made on the construction of the Council House . " . members . beeb . net/more1 . htm" target="_blank">jquarter . members . beeb . net Hmm, Winnie, I don't know if Japan is a good example to quote . It could be argued that the forcing open of Asian nations like China and Japan was typical western arrogance . In the case of China, Britain tried to force opium on them, and turn them into drug addicts, all in the name of free trade, great . Hence the opium wars . Forcing trade on Japan that it didn't necessarily want is rather typical too of American foreign policy, and when the Emperor turned Perry down, then Perry returned with more warships and more men to get a treaty signed . Then a few years later, when the Nips stepped out of line, American and British naval squadrons bombarded the hell out them at Kagoshima and Shimonseki in 1863 and 1864 . Trade at the point of a gun, keep the barbaric Samurai in their place . . users . bigpond . com/battleforaustralia/foundationJapmilaggro/PerryArrives . html" target="_blank">www . users . bigpond . com But even so, and forgetting their agression during the 1930s, Japan can hardly be held up as an example of free trade . " During the miracle years, Japan had few economic competitors in Europe and none in Asia . Because Japan was a Cold War ally, the United States ignored Japanese policies that discouraged imports . The situation is now dramatically different . Japan faces strong international competition . Although the U . S . government is not as concerned about trade issues as prior to the War on Terror, it periodically is critical of Japan's barriers to imports . Protectionism makes life worse for most Japanese . Also, as a result of the communication and computer revolutions, the very nature of global economic competition has changed . Companies now must make swift business decisions in order to remain competitive . While there has been moderate deregulation, Japan's relatively inflexible economic system still makes it difficult for Japanese companies to respond as quickly to competitive challenges as their foreign counterparts . In the face of dramatic new economic challenges the Japanese system continues to change much too slowly . " . indiana . edu/~japan/digest15 . html" target="_blank">www . indiana . edu I don't think either Cic or you Win acknowledge that I said that protectionism, and import licensing enabled NZ to grow, but that it has had it's day, though it doesn't worry me if you think I'm a red :) I think both of you would find it very difficult indeed to demonstrate that market forces without government control and regulation could have led to the development of NZ as we have seen it, from the 1940s through to say the 1960s .	Terry Porritt (14)
408718	2005-12-01 04:33:00	Don't worry Terry, I certainly don't think you are a fellow traveller . A bit more liberal than me but good luck . :thumbs: I don't currently have an opinion regarding NZs growth amid protectionism - because in truth I haven't thought enough about it . Maybe Tom can roust out a few facts . ;)	Winston001 (3612)
408719	2005-12-01 05:28:00	The philosophy is the thing ,one of the most untruthful things possible, you know, is a collection of facts, because they can be made to appear so many different ways. Capitalism is the only system based on the recognition that each individual owns his life. Capitalism is the only social system in which individuals are free to pursue their rational self-interest, to own property and to profit from their actions. It entrenches individual rights, limited Constitutional government, and political/intellectual/economic freedom. It seems to me that we are discussing to what extent this should be applied. When I see the millions wasted by this government and others,it only strengthens my belief,that less goverment is better goverment.	Cicero (40)
408720	2005-12-01 05:52:00	OK, maybe we put that one to bed :) But how about this other interesting article by Dennis Dutton, the decline of general knowledge ? Now I do go along with that all the way :thumbs: . denisdutton . com/general_knowledge . htm" target="_blank">www . denisdutton . com	Terry Porritt (14)
408721	2005-12-01 06:15:00	OK, maybe we put that one to bed :) But how about this other interesting article by Dennis Dutton, the decline of general knowledge ? Now I do go along with that all the way :thumbs: . denisdutton . com/general_knowledge . htm" target="_blank">www . denisdutton . com Indeed an excellent article,I like the Onasis bit . ;)	Cicero (40)
1 2 3 4