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Thread ID: 66730	2006-03-05 21:05:00	Proof, that most of us on middle-incomes are going backwards	KiwiTT_NZ (233)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
435828	2006-03-06 04:20:00	I think the whole point of the Friedmanite/monetarist Rogernomics revolution was to return wealth to where the wealthy believed it properly belonged, to them. So they institionalised unemployment to put the brakes on wage/condition demands, carved up the neo-socialist state assets amongst themsleves and told the people in the middle that if they were having a hard time it was because of the damn poor with their incessant demands. "Side with us against them and we'll all be better off", was the advertising. But as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, which is the plan and the rightfull way to be (they believe) what happens to the middle is that we get dragged down with the poor. To the rich our demands for salaries/conditions are just another pain in the butt. We're really in the same bracket as the poor because the club of the rich has only the rich. Though don't think I'm slagging off all rich people, that's not the point. It's rather the monetarist/national Partyist doctrine of "More wealth! More wealth! That will solve everything." anyway, nice sunny afternoon up here.........	mark c (247)
435829	2006-03-06 05:16:00	If anyone has an online subscription to the herald, have a look at article id 12689. The article is about the rich getting richer and some behind the scenes dealings we all knew about, but we didn't know how much we (the taxpayer) had been ripped off. I'd love to read it too but the herald wants me to subscribe.......for an article that was written 6+ years ago? :confused:	andrew93 (249)
435830	2006-03-06 07:53:00	With all due respect, NZ is a pretty wealthy country . Most people enjoy a standard of living that can only be dreamed of by the billions in the Third World . If we have a failing as a nation, it is the knee-jerk response to anyone who has anything more than average . Financial success is eyed suspiciously rather than celebrated . It's the tall poppy syndrome and quite why it is so strong here is difficult to say . By contrast the Aussies and Americans are optimistic go-getters and their economies show it . Envy of the "rich" (meaning anyone who has more than me) is a corrosive and negative poison which divides our society . But maybe things can change - there doesn't seem to be much negative comment about the shareholders of Trademe . Now there is an example of what can be done . :thumbs:	Winston001 (3612)
435831	2006-03-06 09:15:00	With due respect Winston, I don't think 'the tall poppy syndrome' is the issue here . What we have seen is wage stagnation since 1989 for the bulk of the population, when in fact we were promised better things if only we could endure a bit of pain for a while . Yet at the same time we have seen emoluments for a small sector of the population rise to exhorbitent, many would say obscene levels, to levels out of all proportion to the perceived real worth of the jobs these people do, and the Fay-Richwhites of this world have taken their millions offshore . As an aside, let's look at unemployment over the years . The figures can be obtained by a bit of searching . In 1932 at the height of the depression, the registered unemployed was greater than 73,000, and the population was 1 . 49 million (in 1936) . That is 4 . 8% of total population . In 1992, at 'the height' of the Bolger-Richardson era following on from the famous Douglas reforms that were going to enrich everyone with trickle down, the registered unemployed was 229,391, and the population was 3 . 5 million . That is, 6 . 5% of the total population . Great, eh? An instrument of government! In 2005, we had 75,500 'official' unemployed (a slightly different measure, but these days close enough to the registered unemployed), and the population was approx . 4 million, ie 1 . 9% of total population . It's getting better . Now Trade Me, yes, good on them, but it is a glorified second hand shop, a re-cycler . They are not contributing to the wealth of the nation, or reducing the balance of payments deficit . I keep repeating, this country needs to 'upskill' . It was easy for Douglas, Lange and cohorts in 1984+ to destroy what this country had, anyone can knock down . Ministry of Works, home to the best engineers in the country, (no Im not talking of car mechanics, but real qualified chartered engineers), where are they all now? Douglas did not have the vision or any idea as to what should have been put in place to replace the old and inefficient and feather-bedded . But it wasn't all old and inefficient, far from it . The good went the same way as the bad, down the tubes . I give just one small example, with some backing New Zealand had a chance to set up a very high tech, high value helicopter gear manufacturing subsidiary of a well known company . But the hands off policies killed it, unlike Ireland's policies for example .	Terry Porritt (14)
435832	2006-03-06 10:14:00	Do tell T,which government is going to give you what you want?	Cicero (40)
435833	2006-03-06 10:28:00	I agree with Terry that this isn't a case of 'tall poppy syndrome' and I think we all agree that we, as a country, have to export more for the nation as a whole to become more wealthy (not that we are that badly off, I will concede). Like most people I will celebrate success - witness the general 'good on ya' attitude in the TradeMe sale thread. Now the part I will argue about (with Winston) are the likes of Messrs X and Y who robbed this country blind through their company CML. Anyone who can read that article (and post a copy here?) will vouch for that. These guys didn't make their gains fair and square and in the process (as Terry has touched on) they are indirectly responsible for putting a lot of people out of work. The politicians in question weren't acting alone. The following articles on Tranz Rail are the tip of the iceberg : here (www.citynews.co.nz ive=0&totalRows_Recordset_archive=12&chkMain=1&unique_id=49) and here (64.233.179.104 org.nz/community/CAFCA/publications/Roger/Roger2002.pdf) A :cool:	andrew93 (249)
435834	2006-03-06 19:01:00	Do tell T,which government is going to give you what you want? I just don't know, I was hoping you could give some guidance, but I think you are more inclined towards no government? :lol: I didn't mean to disparage Sam Morgan in any way, no, not at all . He has done well . It just shows that despite the machinations of various governments, you can't keep good, bright, clever people people down . They will rise up and succeed . Look at the clever people in the film industry, the Oscars last night etc . News on morning radio about a world beating super sniffer device that was spawned out of Canterbury University . However, the great unwashed masses ( :) ) on average income need to be led and guided, and have job opportunities put in front of them . They cannot think for themselves in the same way as the brighter 'entrepreneurs' . But then equally the entrepreneurs need watching so that they dont use their brightness to cheat and rip off the rest of us .	Terry Porritt (14)
435835	2006-03-06 19:56:00	With all due respect, NZ is a pretty wealthy country. Most people enjoy a standard of living that can only be dreamed of by the billions in the Third World. Maybe it is a "pretty wealthy country", Winston, and maybe we do enjoy a better standard of living than third world countries... but we're not a third world country, and although we may earn a lot more, things also can cost a lot more to buy. Even with all my wealth (compared to those third world countries) my family does only just scrape by with my average income. In fact, I have a better than average income, but if it weren't for government handouts, my family wouldn't survive at all. At a guess, my family and I would have been better off back in 1989 earning the same as we are now, without the government handouts. Mike.	Mike (15)
435836	2006-03-06 20:20:00	What we could do is drop the exchange rate markedly . This will have the two-fold effect of curtailing non-essential imports (albeit oil will rise) and exporters will earn more money . If venture capitalists see us making money, more will come . Keeping interest rates high is, keeping our dollar high and making foreign money more available for loans etc . , which inflate house prices, making it harder for middle Nz'er to get a house . Lets cut interest rates . Get the exchange rate to 55c, then we may see some change . Any if exporting is a success, these compnaies can invest in new technology and train their workers to upskill . Imports of "2 year life span or less" products is just rampant consumerism and we actually need rampant production of services and products .	KiwiTT_NZ (233)
435837	2006-03-06 20:41:00	Maybe it is a "pretty wealthy country", Winston, and maybe we do enjoy a better standard of living than third world countries... but we're not a third world country, and although we may earn a lot more, things also can cost a lot more to buy. Even with all my wealth (compared to those third world countries) my family does only just scrape by with my average income. In fact, I have a better than average income, but if it weren't for government handouts, my family wouldn't survive at all. At a guess, my family and I would have been better off back in 1989 earning the same as we are now, without the government handouts. Mike. What a load of nonsence, of course you would survive without govt handouts. You only need shelter and food to survive. If by not surviving you mean not being able to have a TV, computer, washing machine, fridge, holidays, a car and all the other modern conveniences that you seem to think if you don't have you are somehow deprived and should be yours by right then you need to get realistic. Do you really think things were any different in 1989 or for that matter 1930 or 1960 Just be grateful for what you have, you don't have to buy everything that appears in the shops, and things don't cost more to buy now, they are generally a lot cheaper than they were years ago compared to wages.	Safari (3993)
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