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Thread ID: 68100	2006-04-17 06:29:00	Religion in politics	rob_on_guitar (4196)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
446960	2006-04-17 21:11:00	Therefore wars were never really started by religion, they where started by man. Yes. Correct. Religion is one of the excuses.	pctek (84)
446961	2006-04-17 21:27:00	It's kinda stupid spreading that kinda rubbish. Why is it rubbish? It's true. Follow the links to the Times and BBC, among others, who also reported it. Or are you a Catholic who believes the Pope can do no wrong?	Mackin_NZ (6958)
446962	2006-04-17 23:52:00	Has nobody heard of the American Civil war? We have a United Nations which keeps some sort of order within its ranks, but there will always be dissenting States who would stand outside the collective body, or be refused admission . that did cross my mind, but if everyone shared the same belief then how would such a war start? besides, americans are crazy :lol: Yes . Correct . Religion is one of the excuses . not entirely true, if religious reasoning causes some insane nut to start a fight, who is to say he would have without such an influence . clearly certain people seem to be unable to control their actions in a manner contrary to their beleifs for the sake of social acceptance . they usualy think they are right . religion is a cause of distress and seperation causing wars . nowadays it may be a method of gaining votes/support, but in some places it is the sole reason . . . sure mankind started religion, so it is our fault, so by stopping it we are fixing an old error . (i'm expecting a bit of flak on that one lol) but to be fair, religion was an effective method of maintaining (a very prejudiced) law and order throughout human history . law breakers were then heretics and were burnt . if the punishment for car theft/tagging/murder etc (provided you are caught red-handed without a doubt) was being burnt at the stake would people still do it? they certainly wouldnt recommit the crime! (and flak onthis one too)	motorbyclist (188)
446963	2006-04-18 01:09:00	but to be fair, religion was an effective method of maintaining (a very prejudiced) law and order throughout human history. law breakers were then heretics and were burnt. if the punishment for car theft/tagging/murder etc (provided you are caught red-handed without a doubt) was being burnt at the stake would people still do it? they certainly wouldnt recommit the crime! (and flak onthis one too) They didn't maintain law. Kings did that. Unless you mean the law that siad you had to go to church, you had to give money to the church and if you disagreed or dared to be say, jewish, they burnt you at the stake. They didn't burn you for theft, they burnt you for disagreeing with their religious crap.	pctek (84)
446964	2006-04-18 01:19:00	They didn't maintain law. Kings did that. Unless you mean the law that siad you had to go to church, you had to give money to the church and if you disagreed or dared to be say, jewish, they burnt you at the stake. They didn't burn you for theft, they burnt you for disagreeing with their religious crap. yes true, but i applied theft to modern day problems, point being it did go wrong somewhere, despite saying "do not kill" and whatever else they have. its all values which people tend to stick to... most of the time.. in most civilisations the king/emporer/pharoah was a god or damn close to. they would have burned heretics as a voice of reason would have (and did) put the church in a position of lesser power, lessening their influence and thus devaluing their "laws" religion is still an outdated control system, and has no place in todays government. which i beleive is the point of this thread	motorbyclist (188)
446965	2006-04-18 16:35:00	Hey I'm a totally non-religous person but don't think by eradicating/removing religion you're going to get all the strife over . It's deeper than that . People would start worshipping, say Fisher & Paykel, and others Mitsibushi, and wars would break out . It's more to do with a deep want to belong, and we are so factionalised and fractionalised we clump together in groupings that temporarily do something towards calming that . We've got a lot to learn . A hundred years ago we were tightly bound in our national identities and cultures were more or less homogenous . Now the world is all mixed together and it's going to take us all a while to adjust . How true . . . that need to deify someone or something runs thru all humanity . . . . . . Actually, the part about the identities and clumping together in times past is true . . . but remember that people didn't have access to info and travel as they do now . . . going to town to make a purchase in the stores was reserved as a monthly or every two months trip . Catching up on the latest gossip and news that had trickled down to the general populus was seldom . With the advent of mass communication and travel, the world got to be able to compare notes and see what the other side had or did not have . I totally believe that this is one of the mitigating factors in the fall of the Communist bear . . . when they saw how the rest of the world lived, they wanted some of it too . As far as saying one country is Christian (should be a small "c" there), I proffer what a rabbi on a tv show here in the States said once when asked if Christianity had somehow failed and he stated: "I don't believe it's ever been tried" . Statements that idologies and governments will solve the world's problems stem from the idea that somehow this will stop the world's frenzied search for enlightenment and just get down to living a peaceful and wholesome life . Mankind muck up about everything they do . . . communism cannot be practiced with more than 6 people (the actual number may be smaller), as is the case with democracy or most any "-ism's" or "-ologies" . Whenever there are two people trying to get along, there are probably three ideas on how to do so, not counting outside observers who believe they KNOW how help the other two make peace . Watching the televised lectures of Dr . Eugene Keller, professor on History at UCLA, I reinforced and re-evaluated from a secular source that 1914 was a pivitol year in the world as strides in technology had bounded to unhearalded levels, WW-I started (the war to end all wars . . . but a WORLD at war, not just a neighboring pair of countries . . . ), the Spanish Influenza, Malaria, the automobile, the telephone and telegraph, transcontinental trains, fast oceanliners and the birth of air travel . The local "color" and "ambiance" or the rural living with friends and neighbors gave way to fear and loathing and hate and oppression on a scale that had never been seen in time to that date . Nationalism and foreign distrust and wars waged by people who made countries act "for their own good" in the form of government rules and regulations never actually made things any easier on the home front for the citizens . Pressed into mandatory service : "for God and Queen", or for "Uncle Sam" or "Allah" never sat well with thinking people, and hate and distrust of the ruling class has caused a ground swell of disdane for the rulers and clergy who "direct by fear of retalliation from God" if HIS rules are not upheld" . I would not want to be on the hit list of the true god when time to seperate the good from the bad is done . Where would one hide at that time? All those professing to call themselves christian had better know where they actually stand and what they are declaring . Calling yourself Christian, and not actually being one is far worse than being pagan or godless .	SurferJoe46 (51)
446966	2006-04-19 06:34:00	Calling yourself Christian, and not actually being one is far worse than being pagan or godless. true, but IF there is a god or gods, how are we meant to tell which one, and if he/she/they intend to kill all non-beleivers at some point? really, abstaining from the whole issue seems safer lol and for the rest of it, yes, human nature is a problem, but i dont see why people cant overcome stuff like that? there is always those rapists/murderers etc that cant seem to control themselves.....	motorbyclist (188)
446967	2006-04-19 19:04:00	true, but IF there is a god or gods, how are we meant to tell which one, and if he/she/they intend to kill all non-beleivers at some point? really, abstaining from the whole issue seems safer lol and for the rest of it, yes, human nature is a problem, but i dont see why people cant overcome stuff like that? there is always those rapists/murderers etc that cant seem to control themselves . . . . . The biggest fault of so-called Christians is that they don't do the obvious thing . . Let me digress a moment . If there's one true God, then by the title "TRUE GOD" he would leave some way of communicating with his creation . Leaving creation to fend for itself with no divine intervention would be cruel and mean and not a benevolent god at all . If you buy something as mundane as a car, you get an owner's manual . The same is true of a real god . . . he would leave an owner's manual>The Bible . Here's the part where people fail to find the true god . . . they don't read the owner's manual that God left . There is much negative commentary about the worthiness of any book that has so many authors and interpretations . . . but that's where a person would want to be very cautious . There ARE invalid version of the Bible . . . they leave out the Hebrew texts and call them old or out of date . (There are still some prophesies in the Hebrew texts, commonly called The Old Testament, that aren't yet fulfilled . . . so there's no way that this part of the bible can be discounted . ) There is the promulgation of Ecumenism, (the enjoining of outside cohabitation of other pagan beliefs and outside theocracies with a belief), which is strictly forbidden in the scriptures . IF there is one God, then why are there so many options? It's demonic to place alternate texts, ideologies and false doctrines out there to confuse and trick people away from the truth . Inculcating ANY false teaching into the "theories" of religion should be a red flag to the church-attendees who hear such apostasy . I proved that there is a True God when I discovered all the false doctrines that existed in the world . Why would there be so much false teaching if there wasn't a reason . . . the reason being trying to mask the truth . Weigh all the teaching you've ever heard in a religion against the yardstick of truth . . . . . . . . use the doctrine of a True God against it . . . use even the Ten Commandments if you like and see where or if any "church" deviates from it . . . if it does . . . remove yourself . Start with one . . . You Must Not Kill . . . that's a good one . How many churches of Christendom actually believe and follow that one? -- Joe Vreeland	SurferJoe46 (51)
446968	2006-04-19 20:57:00	If there's one true God, then by the title "TRUE GOD" he would leave some way of communicating with his creation. ...he would leave an owner's manual>The Bible. ( Haha. The Bible didn't exist when christians claim all this Jesus stuff happened. It was assembled a whole lot later. There were all those writings by various people at various times, but the Bible is just a collection of a few of them. The guy who originally came up with it left lots out as it didn't fit with what christians had already decided. And if there was such a thing as a god, then why leave a bunch of cryptic papers written by a bunch of men, you're guaranteeing endless arguments. Especially as theres a bunch of "examples" of direct communication in that collection.....	pctek (84)
446969	2006-04-20 05:20:00	Haha. The Bible didn't exist when christians claim all this Jesus stuff happened. It was assembled a whole lot later. There were all those writings by various people at various times, but the Bible is just a collection of a few of them. The guy who originally came up with it left lots out as it didn't fit with what christians had already decided. And if there was such a thing as a god, then why leave a bunch of cryptic papers written by a bunch of men, you're guaranteeing endless arguments. Especially as theres a bunch of "examples" of direct communication in that collection..... WRONG-O There are 66 books and letters in the Bible, not many were written by the same person...not some "guy" as you stated anyway. The only things that are left out are scriptures that do not meet some churches or religious sects personal idea of what the Bible SHOULD say, as it applies to them. Many things are left out by the Hebrews of around Constantine's time when the truth became apostate and was swallowed up by the Roman as the "official-state-sanctioned-religion". Most churches with that sort of attitude have very thin Bibles...they remove what they don't like. Never hear of the Pentatuch? It's the first 5 books of the Bible that were penned by MOSES...so where does that leave your illogic about " The Bible didn't exist when christians claim all this Jesus stuff happened. It was assembled a whole lot later. " stuff? The so called Old Testament prophesies about the arrival of the Messiah...and then at the turn of the year 32 CE, the new covenant is established to replace the old covenant made with Israel when they failed to recognize the arrival of the Messiah. They wanted a physical kingdom establishing them as the choice people of God, but they lost when they could not see what Jesus told them...that "My kingdom is not of this earth, but a heavenly one". Most people discount the whole "Old Testament" as old fashioned and not even applicable to today. But intelligent people know that's not so. Jesus even quoted from the Old Testament many times. Paul also quoted from the OT many times. John quoted from the OT many times. I guess then that your statement that none of the Bible was written until after Jesus doesn't hold water then...right? The prophecies in the book of Revelation are parallel to the ones in Habakkuk, Daniel, Zephaniah, Ezekiel and others....so even the New Testament quotes from the Old. Leaving out any of the Bible to assuage one's own conscience is just denying the fact that the whole theme of the Bible is the Kingdom of God....it is stated in the beginning in Genesis and is resolved in Revelation. Tossing out one whole side of the scriptures is just plain wrong. The problem as you pointed out, is that many people don't really know what the Bible says in ALL it's books, and are just willing to toss the whole thing into the rubbish because they have ill-conceived ideas and twisted "knowledge" of what the Bible actually has inside it. Walking on 1/2 the truth will not be conducive to living in the Kingdom arrangement set up for the near future.	SurferJoe46 (51)
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