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Thread ID: 72662	2006-09-21 10:05:00	What's the meaning of life?	Renmoo (66)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
486397	2006-11-17 21:11:00	Andrew93 Hi Joe While I was reading your reply Joe I couldn't help but think most of it was self-referencing . No offence intended but I'm with the majority here in saying there is no structured purpose or meaning to life as ordained by a higher being, but I'm not averse to having an informed discussion with a believer . I am more than happy to stand up and be judged on this basis when I die . Why? With all of the differing religions and their mutually exclusive ways of gaining entry to 'heaven', I believe that either a) all of them are wrong or b) only one of them can be right . Given there is only one Earth/Universe (as we humans know it), there can only be one creator and as such only his/her heaven is the real one - the others are either fake or do not exist . Given each religion is self-serving, whom do we believe when each says they are the one true path to 'God'? I'll take a punt and say none - but if I follow some basic guiding principles in the way I lead my life (eg by pretty much adopting the 10 commandments and clawing my way up Maslows hierarchy of needs) then I figure I have a pretty good shot at heaven, if it exists and whatever its form . I'm one of the good guys, irrespective of my faith and beliefs, and I'm comfortable with that, so thats good enough for me . But I am curious Joe about a couple of aspects of Christianity which I'm hoping you will help fill in the details . The observance of Easter occurs on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Ides of March . What has a full moon got to do with when we observe Easter? Easter (or Oestre) as we currently know it is the old observance of fertility rites . Eggs, rabbits, sun worshipping services, marking on foreheads with burnt (offerings?) of palm fronds . . . . . . the holiday tries to align itself with the resurrection and threw in a few pagan rites of Spring's arrival . What is there is not really observing the resurrection of a messiah (offering, in this case) but keeping the pews full and finding new converts who already had these practices and could now have them and the "new" christendom too . Besides, they like the event and fed it to their children as "fun" and "god-loves-you" type ear tickling . Secondly, how do you reconcile the fact that some of the oldest Christian churches in Britain are adorned with pagan symbols? Druid influence was very powerful, and I personally note and say there are more spectral observations in Britain than most anywhere in the world, whilst calling itself "christian" Aren't Christianity and paganism diametrically opposed? Things like the Ankh and the swastika (yes) and items that are some sort of protecting icon were all throwbacks to having a talisman or something as simple as a rabbit's foot on a key chain . . . . all signs of weak faith . "Let's cover all bases here; We never know if our god is listening" . . type stuff . If so, why did the churches allow pagan symbols to be added at the time they were constructed, especially during a time of great conflict? This conflict you mention was a literal invasion of so-called christianity into pagan lands, forcing capitulation of the vanquished via torture, fear, hate and simony . If you notice pagan symbols in a building that is supposed to be from a different god or even the "real" one, I'd be suspect that someone is there just for the aura and ambiance and "fun" . . . not a spiritual education . You mentioned the bible was written over a period of 1600 years . Your previous post mentioned it was written by our creator (which prompted my first question), but I'm happy to let that one go . Don't just let something go . . . you have a thought that needs investigation . . . don't cut yourself short and just swallow something . Actually, it (the bible) was written under inspiration . Not just a few of the writers mentioned that they knew not what they were writing, but wrote it anyway as a command from god . Take the prophesies that were not even fulfilled during the lifetime of the scribe . The condemnation of whole nations occurred many years, after some of these prophesies were penned, make that pretty obvious . Even many history scholars have marvelled at the accuracy and tenacity of naming names and citing places that didn't seem to exist until latter excavations revealed them to be real . Do you not see any opportunities for errors and omissions over 1600 years? Yes . . . in content but not purpose . It was the ancient Hebrew scribes who redacted the name of god from the scriptures out of fear and superstition, as they view writing it as saying the name of god in a worthless or possibly degrading way according to the belief that they were defying one of the ten commandments . IE . , "Who am I to write the name of the Most Holy? . . . ergo, it was left out of the secondary manuscripts . Certain religions had axes to grind and also had decided that they knew better about such things as the Baylonian concept of the trinity, hellfire and eternal suffering and damnation crept into the faith and polluted it beyond what it once was . The first century christians were responsible for the mess christendom finds itself in right now . "Synods" and again that old "simony" and relative papal infallibility, and the establishment of a state run church (Constantine's Roman Catholicism) make strange bedfellows of adherents who were instructed by the Christ to not be part of the world (political and social-pathological), yet live in it as separate and law-abiding . Paying taxes, obeying secular authorities and caring deeply for family, neighbor and god's word were deeply inculcated into the real faith, but it became apostate as warned by Jesus . Given the period of time involved, the inability to preserve original documents, the fact common man relied on stories and songs to pass on history, customs and beliefs while the monasteries provided the written record, and the fact our present day newspapers and eyewitnesses are unable to accurately report on something that happened yesterday, I see plenty of opportunities to 'doctor' the records to suit a purpose . Do you? Of course . . . but it is not quite like you see it . Let me expand on your thought here . With the many manuscripts that have been found (lost scrolls and all that) it makes sense to ask that question . Even modern communications are capable of being lost to syntax and meaning . Try this thought: IF there is REALLY a god, would he allow himself to remain aloof and restrict his communication with his created beings to just run the gauntlet of birth-life-death without revealing Himself? Even human fathers and mothers want to have their offspring achieve happiness and health, quality of life and prosper . . . one scripture asks: "If a child asks for a fish, will a loving father give him a serpent? Ask yourself if prayers are futile or even have a hearer . If you believe in a hearer, then you have to go the extra distance and figure that you would not be so badly treated as to have no answers to your prayers . Lastly, I'd be interested to hear your take on Darwin's theory of evolution . If you believe in creationism then I believe (please correct me if I am misunderstanding this) there wouldn't be any room for Darwin's theories, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that . I BELIEVE in theories . . . they exist . The problem I have with Darwin is that he didn't allow for anything but a narrow view on the animal kingdom . Evolution has to assist the animal of the moment . It is useless to the next generation if the current progenitors cease to exist because of inabilities, flaws or non-coping capacities for the environment in which they find themselves . Next generation's giraffes will not be born if the parents dies because they are ineffectual and incapable of at least getting to maturity with their current design and then have offspring . The female must not become deceased during gestation . . . a time when food intake and special capacities would be most needed, to deliver the next generation . Suckling and raising to maturity an offspring is also taxing on the parents with food gathering, protection and all at the same time having to exist as a lower quality or defective version of their progeny . It doesn't crunch . There are however oddities in reproduction . Caused by a stray gamma ray or some other mutating element, there is indeed change and devolution in living carbon-based animals and plants . . etc . Mutants are not evolution; they are a loss of some characteristic that was good and beneficial to the originating life form . A flower with no leaves won't prosper . A fish with defective gills or eyes or missing a liver will not live long enough to pass on that trait . I don't say that all mutations are that devastating . Some are so small that the organism can get along with the defect for a full lifetime, but eventually these defects pass on and become manifest in the generations to come . One good example is first-cousin-marriage . The defects in closely related people will become too strong to ignore . We are so far from the original design and perfection that our creator gave to our original parents because the blessing to man has been removed until the resolution of sovereignty . Regards Andrew	SurferJoe46 (51)
486398	2006-11-17 21:25:00	By the way Joe - did you get your reply from here? . yahoo . com/question/index?qid=20061111114045AAAr7r0" target="_blank">answers . yahoo . com I thought those were mostly your words . Or are you also Answerer10? Andrew No . . not I . . . but I recognize a C/P from a book called "Reasoning" Actually, I was reluctant to C/P too . . . but did so for some of the answers I put afore here . My most recent post however is my own words . There's a certain testimony or faith that relies upon understanding not mysteries, but easy to understand truths . These are obviated by the scriptures themselves . My greatest weakness is the ability to paraphrase certain thoughts . . and some people do not want to hear that sort on information . I used the C/P as a way to inform from printed material and not make it my own words . Perhaps some did not like that . . . sorry . One thing to consider though is that if, as I state, I have truth to speak, the source should not be suspect, but the involvature might . I will try to use more 1st person posts in the future .	SurferJoe46 (51)
486399	2006-11-18 04:42:00	It fascinates me,humans ability to believe absolutely anything and for some of these beliefs to end up as gospel. Why is it,that we seem to need something to believe in? I don't know why that should be, it just happens. I believe I'll have another beer. :waughh:	R2x1 (4628)
486400	2006-11-18 05:06:00	I don't know why that should be, it just happens. I believe I'll have another beer. :waughh: What we want is an answer from the inner self,never mind boozing. This is a very serious business.	Cicero (40)
486401	2006-11-18 06:10:00	What we want is an answer from the inner self,never mind boozing. This is a very serious business.But if "boozing" is ones thing, then surely "Have another beer!" is an answer from the inner self?	personthingy (1670)
486402	2006-11-18 07:49:00	Hi Andrew, I read your post and wanted to add some of my thoughts . I am more than happy to stand up and be judged on this basis when I die . Why? With all of the differing religions and their mutually exclusive ways of gaining entry to 'heaven', I believe that either a) all of them are wrong or b) only one of them can be right . Given there is only one Earth/Universe (as we humans know it), there can only be one creator and as such only his/her heaven is the real one - the others are either fake or do not exist . Given each religion is self-serving, whom do we believe when each says they are the one true path to 'God'? I'll take a punt and say none - but if I follow some basic guiding principles in the way I lead my life (eg by pretty much adopting the 10 commandments and clawing my way up Maslows hierarchy of needs) then I figure I have a pretty good shot at heaven, if it exists and whatever its form . I'm one of the good guys, irrespective of my faith and beliefs, and I'm comfortable with that, so thats good enough for me . I agree with your reasoning and the conclusions you make (a and b) its pretty clear that most if not all religions are mutually exclusive . I think that most people would agree that these are the only logical possibilities . And then it does become a question of which to believe as to the true path to God (or if none are true then there is no path to worry about) . I just wanted to make a comment as to following the ten commandments . In a previous post I tried to explain that following the ten commandments won't get you into heaven . The reason this is is because we all have broken at least one of them . On earth when we break the law (and we are caught) we receive the punishment for what we have done wrong . It won't matter to the judge how many times you didn't break the law or how many good things you have done, he will still execute justice . Similarly God is just and He has to punish violations of His laws . In the book of Romans (ch7 onwards) in the Bible it goes into some depth explaining that the law does not have the ability to save . But the good news is that God has already provided a way for the punishment for our violations (the Bible calls sin) through Jesus Christ . This is the essence of the Good News of the Bible and explains why Jesus had to come to earth to die . Romans 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit . For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death . For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh . . . The observance of Easter occurs on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Ides of March . What has a full moon got to do with when we observe Easter? I agree mostly with SurferJoe here . In the past Pagan rituals etc were combined with the Christian celebrations (because they occured around the same time) . Pagan fertility rituals occured around this time of year (northern hemisphere spring time) which is why rabbits (very fertile animals ;)) and eggs are the symbols . These have no true connection with Christianity . Secondly, how do you reconcile the fact that some of the oldest Christian churches in Britain are adorned with pagan symbols? Aren't Christianity and paganism diametrically opposed? If so, why did the churches allow pagan symbols to be added at the time they were constructed, especially during a time of great conflict? Again following on from above, there have been many pagan things added to Christianity and strangely this is consistent with the biblical world view . This is because the Bible teaches that God has an enemy (Satan) whose whole purpose is to deceive and corrupt . What better way to deceive than by creating a large number of false 'imposter' religions and even distorting Christianity itself by mixing in paganism? You mentioned the bible was written over a period of 1600 years . Your previous post mentioned it was written by our creator (which prompted my first question), but I'm happy to let that one go . Do you not see any opportunities for errors and omissions over 1600 years? Given the period of time involved, the inability to preserve original documents, the fact common man relied on stories and songs to pass on history, customs and beliefs while the monasteries provided the written record, and the fact our present day newspapers and eyewitnesses are unable to accurately report on something that happened yesterday, I see plenty of opportunities to 'doctor' the records to suit a purpose . Do you? Again a very good point . It is worth questioning whether we can trust that the Bible has been preserved as it has been copied and past down through time . Firstly I want to say that the Bible was written down . What I mean is that it wasn't first past down orally through generations it was written down directly . Also the Bible claims that it is the direct word of God written by men as He inspired them . 2 Peter 1 v 20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation . For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit . Now we just need to find out whether the Bible has made it to us without error . Firstly I want to argue that if God is who the Bible says He is then He is able to make sure that His message can make it to us without alteration . Although we probably do not have the original scrolls of the Bible in most cases we have very early copies . For a good quick summary: . christianadvice . net/the_bible_accuracy . htm" target="_blank">www . christianadvice . net We do find some discrepancies between the texts but these do not change the message or meaning of the whole . Lastly, I'd be interested to hear your take on Darwin's theory of evolution . If you believe in creationism then I believe (please correct me if I am misunderstanding this) there wouldn't be any room for Darwin's theories, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that . I agree that Darwin's theories and the Biblical account of Origins are mutually exclusive . Neither one requires the other and if we apply Occam's Razor ( . wikipedia . org/wiki/Occam's_razor" target="_blank">en . wikipedia . org) then why assume anything combination of the two . Darwin himself understood that his theories were in opposition to the Biblical account . Still there are some christians who believe that the Bible got it wrong regarding this some don't realise that all the observations in the world/universe can be explained by the discription the Bible gives regarding creation etc .	pico (4752)
486403	2006-11-18 10:45:00	Originally posted by SurferJoe46 My beliefs are not a viable threat to anyone else's lifestyle or beliefs. Try telling that to the friends/families of JW's who have died because the Watchtower Society forbids them from having a blood transfusion. we are not here to change the world Then why do you preach from door to door? Why did the JW's just recently distribute a flyer with a message that every other religion is soon going to be destroyed? Why do you actively preach that God will soon destroy everyone on the earth who is not a JW? Being what I am, is, I believe, a thinking person's faith. If you really were a thinking person you would see the common sense and rationality in 90% of the posts in this thread. There are no God's, no angels, no Devil or demons. Religion is nothing more than fear and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds. ...removal from pagan and illigitimate religeous holidays and perversions... You've obviously not lived or worked at Bethel then Joe (Bethel is what the JW's call their headquarters offices and also it's branch offices. A select group of JW's live and work there. Some of the goings on would make the worst Catholic kiddie-fiddler Priest blush). Has Surferjoe46 changed now in your eyes and not worthy of your interaction Yes. Now I can never again trust what you have to say since I know that JW's are taught that it's OK to lie in defence of your religion.	Mackin_NZ (6958)
486404	2006-11-18 11:52:00	What we want is an answer from the inner self,never mind boozing. This is a very serious business. Although my inner self has had a beer, my upper self believes I should have another. If I had no beer left, we would be talking serious indeed. If religion was not so amusing, I suppose it would be serious. Any leader that knocks off it's son. because said leader was responsible for a defective product is more pathetic than serious though.	R2x1 (4628)
486405	2006-11-18 12:07:00	What we want is an answer from the inner self,never mind boozing. This is a very serious business. Although my inner self has had a beer, my upper self believes I should have another. If I had no beer left, we would be talking serious indeed. If most religions were not so ridiculous, I suppose they could be taken seriously. For instance, any leader that knocks off it's son. because said leader was responsible for a defective product is more pathetic than serious.There have been very few conflicts without the religious representatives on both sides whipping the troops into a frenzy.No matter what religion you choose, there are are more people believing you have chosen the wrong flavour than there are sharing your belief. Religion is the only belief that condemns all outsiders to a grim future, and faith is just belief without evidence. Fortunately for you, my beliefs don't condem you to a fate any worse than I face.	R2x1 (4628)
486406	2006-11-18 16:37:00	Mackin_NZ "Yes . Now I can never again trust what you have to say since I know that JW's are taught that it's OK to lie in defence of your religion . " I am sorry that I so incensed you . . . as you obviously have issues with faith . . . mine in particular . I haven't changed; you have . Enjoying the posts here and reading what everyone has to say about this subject, is, I think healthy and insightful, and I hope the mods don't redact ( . google . com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org . mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=define%3A+redact&btnG=Google+Search" target="_blank">www . google . com) any of them . Please let them stand . I however, would not stoop to insults and degradation like that . Accepting people as they are is a creedo that I try to use . . . you are no less to me as a poster here than any other person, and I never intended to allow this particular platform to be used as a weapon . As I don't think it's necessary to restate my position, as you seem to have it all neatly bundled and packaged, I shall not rise to that gauntlet . Any comments you make in the future, are indeed your opinion, and I respect that as I respect any other person with something to say . Your right to swing your fist, however, ends at the tip of my nose .	SurferJoe46 (51)
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