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Thread ID: 72662	2006-09-21 10:05:00	What's the meaning of life?	Renmoo (66)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
486387	2006-11-17 07:40:00	Common sense in my opinion. Religion is the biggest cause of trouble in the world.. PJ I would like to see you tell the pope that,I think you would have an argument on your hands.	Cicero (40)
486388	2006-11-17 08:03:00	Let the pope stick to popery	R2x1 (4628)
486389	2006-11-17 10:04:00	I would like to see you tell the pope that,I think you would have an argument on your hands. Of course he would argue, he is in a cushy job for life. What price humility living like he does, whilst other Catholics starve. PJ:angry	Poppa John (284)
486390	2006-11-17 10:11:00	If you really want to go there, I have some interesting proofs that the bible was written under inspiration by writers who many times did not know what they were writing . Basic to this premise is the fact that man has very little chance of writing prophesy, something the bible does many times over . The accuracy is astounding . Filled with prophecies reflecting detailed knowledge of the future . . . . . something impossible for humans, the bible has been an embarassment to philosophers, science and naysayers for a long time . Accounting for it's own accuracy, we need to view how historians, scientists and others align with what the scriptures say: 2 Pet . 1:20, 21: “No prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation . For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit . ” So, now you will obviously want proof . . . . now to the proofs that are obvious, as there are many many others . . . . . The Prophecy: Isa . 44:24, 27, 28; 45:1-4: “ . . . the One saying to the watery deep, ‘Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up’; the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in my saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid . ’ This is what God has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: ‘Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out . The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down . . . . For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I even proceeded to call you by your name . ’” (Writing by Isaiah was completed by about 732 B . C . E . ) The fulfillment: Cyrus had not been born when the prophecy was written . The Jews were not taken into exile to Babylon until 617-607 B . C . E . , and Jerusalem and its temple were not destroyed until 607 B . C . E . In detail the prophecy was fulfilled starting in 539 B . C . E . Cyrus diverted the waters of the Euphrates River into an artificial lake, the river gates of Babylon were carelessly left open during feasting in the city, and Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians under Cyrus . Thereafter, Cyrus liberated the Jewish exiles and sent them back to Jerusalem with instructions to rebuild God's temple there . - The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol . III, p . 9; Light From the Ancient Past (Princeton, 1959), Jack Finegan, pp . 227-229; “All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial” (New York, 1983), pp . 282, 284, 295 . The Prophecy: Jer . 49:17, 18: “‘Edom must become an object of astonishment . Everyone passing along by her will stare in astonishment and whistle on account of all her plagues . Just as in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and her neighbor towns,’ Jehovah has said, ‘no man will dwell there . ’” (Jeremiah’s recording of prophecies was completed by 580 B . C . E . ) The Fulfillment: “They [the Edomites] were driven from Palestine in the 2nd century B . C . by Judas Maccabæus, and in 109 B . C . John Hyrcanus, Maccabæan leader, extended the kingdom of Judah to include the w . part of Edomitic lands . In the 1st century B . C . Roman expansion swept away the last vestige of Edomitic independence . . . After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A . D . . . . the name Idumæa [Edom] disappeared from history . ” (The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, 1952, Vol . 11, p . 4114) Notice that the fulfillment extends down to our day . In no way can it be argued that this prophecy was written after the events had taken place . The Prophecy: Luke 19:41-44; 21:20, 21: “He [Jesus Christ] viewed the city [Jerusalem] and wept over it, saying: . . . . . . . ‘The days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected . ’” Two days later, he counseled his disciples: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near . Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw . ” (Prophecy spoken by Jesus Christ in 33 C . E . ) The Fulfillment: Jerusalem revolted against Rome, and in 66 C . E . the Roman army under Cestius Gallus attacked the city . But, as Jewish historian Josephus reports, the Roman commander “suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City . ” (Josephus, the Jewish War, Penguin Classics, 1969, p . 167) This provided opportunity for Christians to flee from the city, which they did, moving to Pella, beyond the Jordan, according to Eusebius Pamphilus in his Ecclesiastical History . (Translated by C . F . Crusé, London, 1894, p . 75) Then around Passover time of the year 70 C . E . General Titus besieged the city, an encircling fence 4 . 5 miles (7 . 2 km) long was erected in just three days, and after five months Jerusalem fell . “Jerusalem itself was systematically destroyed and the Temple left in ruins . Archaeological work shows us today just how effective was the destruction of Jewish buildings all over the land . ”—The Bible and Archaeology (Grand Rapids, Mich . ; 1962), J . A . Thompson, p . 299 . Its contents are scientifically sound on matters that human researchers have discovered only at a later date . Origin of the Universe: Gen . 1:1: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth . ” In 1978, astronomer Robert Jastrow wrote: “Now we see how the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world . The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy . ”—God and the Astronomers (New York, 1978), p . 14 . Physical Shape of Planet Earth: Isa . 40:22: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth . ” In ancient times the general opinion was that the earth was flat . It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was spherical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximate radius of the earth . But the idea of a spherical earth was not the general view even then . Only in the 20th century has it been possible for humans to travel by airplane, and later into outer space and even to the moon, thus giving them a clear view of “the circle” of earth’s horizon . Animal Life: Lev . 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud . ” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century . The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol . 110, Series A, pp . 159-163 . Its internal harmony is significant This is especially so in view of the fact that the books of the Bible were recorded by some 40 men as diverse as king, prophet, herdsman, tax collector, and physician . They did the writing over a period of 1,610 years; so there was no opportunity for collusion . Yet their writings agree, even in the smallest detail . To appreciate the extent to which the various portions of the Bible are harmoniously intertwined, you must read and study it personally . How can we be sure the Bible has not been changed? “In the number of ancient MSS . [manuscripts] attesting a writing, and in the number of years that had elapsed between the original and the attesting MSS . , the Bible enjoys a decided advantage over classical writings [those of Homer, Plato, and others] . . . . Altogether classical MSS . are but a handful compared with Biblical . No ancient book is so well attested as the Bible . ”—The Bible From the Beginning (New York, 1929), P . Marion Simms, pp . 74, 76 . A report published in 1971 shows that there are possibly 6,000 handwritten copies containing all or part of the Hebrew Scriptures; the oldest dates back to the third century B . C . E . Of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there are some 5,000 in Greek, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C . E . There are also many copies of early translations into other languages . In the introduction to his seven volumes on The Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri, Sir Frederic Kenyon wrote: “The first and most important conclusion derived from the examination of them [the papyri] is the satisfactory one that they confirm the essential soundness of the existing texts . No striking or fundamental variation is shown either in the Old or the New Testament . There are no important omissions or additions of passages, and no variations which affect vital facts or doctrines . The variations of text affect minor matters, such as the order of words or the precise words used . . . . . . but their essential importance is their confirmation, by evidence of an earlier date than was hitherto available, of the integrity of our existing texts . ”—(London, 1933), p . 15 . It is true that some translations of the Bible adhere more closely to what is in the original languages than others do . Modern paraphrase Bibles have taken liberties that at times alter the original meaning . Some translators have allowed personal beliefs to color their renderings . But these weaknesses can be identified by comparison of a variety of translations . Ultimately, with proofs and statements of and about itself, one has to ask: . . . . . . . . . . . If there's really a creator, would he allow his subjects to just wander around not knowing where they stood in relation to him? Even a king or president or dictator has to make his laws and rules known to the general populus, or there will be no order in that kingdom . I didn't read it, Sure is a lot of words, I wonder what they all mean . . . .	Metla (12)
486391	2006-11-17 10:28:00	Hi Joe While I was reading your reply Joe I couldn't help but think most of it was self-referencing. No offence intended but I'm with the majority here in saying there is no structured purpose or meaning to life as ordained by a higher being, but I'm not averse to having an informed discussion with a believer. I am more than happy to stand up and be judged on this basis when I die. Why? With all of the differing religions and their mutually exclusive ways of gaining entry to 'heaven', I believe that either a) all of them are wrong or b) only one of them can be right. Given there is only one Earth/Universe (as we humans know it), there can only be one creator and as such only his/her heaven is the real one - the others are either fake or do not exist. Given each religion is self-serving, whom do we believe when each says they are the one true path to 'God'? I'll take a punt and say none - but if I follow some basic guiding principles in the way I lead my life (eg by pretty much adopting the 10 commandments and clawing my way up Maslows hierarchy of needs) then I figure I have a pretty good shot at heaven, if it exists and whatever its form. I'm one of the good guys, irrespective of my faith and beliefs, and I'm comfortable with that, so thats good enough for me. But I am curious Joe about a couple of aspects of Christianity which I'm hoping you will help fill in the details. The observance of Easter occurs on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Ides of March. What has a full moon got to do with when we observe Easter? Secondly, how do you reconcile the fact that some of the oldest Christian churches in Britain are adorned with pagan symbols? Aren't Christianity and paganism diametrically opposed? If so, why did the churches allow pagan symbols to be added at the time they were constructed, especially during a time of great conflict? You mentioned the bible was written over a period of 1600 years. Your previous post mentioned it was written by our creator (which prompted my first question), but I'm happy to let that one go. Do you not see any opportunities for errors and omissions over 1600 years? Given the period of time involved, the inability to preserve original documents, the fact common man relied on stories and songs to pass on history, customs and beliefs while the monasteries provided the written record, and the fact our present day newspapers and eyewitnesses are unable to accurately report on something that happened yesterday, I see plenty of opportunities to 'doctor' the records to suit a purpose. Do you? Lastly, I'd be interested to hear your take on Darwin's theory of evolution. If you believe in creationism then I believe (please correct me if I am misunderstanding this) there wouldn't be any room for Darwin's theories, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Regards Andrew	andrew93 (249)
486392	2006-11-17 10:34:00	By the way Joe - did you get your reply from here? answers.yahoo.com I thought those were mostly your words. Or are you also Answerer10? Andrew	andrew93 (249)
486393	2006-11-17 10:43:00	Pagan symbols?, Thats easy, They were hoping to attract some pagans, In the hope they would share there alcohol and loose women. Anyhow, The flaw in the theory (to me anyhow) is that in the old testament God was a bad mofo, Wiped out the entire population of earth for lack of respect, burned villages, smoted people left right and center, Told his armies to hand out death to non-Christians, Then...suddenly, Baby Jesus was born, and he preached love and restraint...W.T.F?, GOD WAS WRONG? Its all about loving thy brother?, Forgiveness?, His lowly son knows better then god?, THE GOD? anyhow, load of choad, The Norsemen believed in their Gods just as feverently and they didn't see ragnorak.	Metla (12)
486394	2006-11-17 11:05:00	Joe's quotes are coming directly from the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses . Joe is either a JW apologist or a JW himself . That puts him at level 10 on the "gullible shumk" scale (10 being the highest) . That big long prophecy post is full out-of-context misquotes that the Watchtower Society is known for . Try actually looking up the source quotes for yourself Joe and you'll soon see the JW "spin" has been applied to the writings of respected scientists and commentators . Seriously Joe, if you listen to those people it will all end in tears . Believe me, I know .	Mackin_NZ (6958)
486395	2006-11-17 16:30:00	Joe's quotes are coming directly from the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses . Joe is either a JW apologist or a JW himself . That puts him at level 10 on the "gullible shumk" scale (10 being the highest) . That big long prophecy post is full out-of-context misquotes that the Watchtower Society is known for . Try actually looking up the source quotes for yourself Joe and you'll soon see the JW "spin" has been applied to the writings of respected scientists and commentators . Seriously Joe, if you listen to those people it will all end in tears . Believe me, I know . It's my lifestyle for the past . . well . . . since 1968, and yes it is the way I try to live . My beliefs are not a viable threat to anyone else's lifestyle or beliefs . Free moral agency allows you to be what or whomever you want . Trying to live to a set of definitions of what's right and wrong on the level to which I aspire, should be a good thing in your eyes . I cause you no harm, and in fact, I would be one of the first to respond to anyone's request for help . Organizationally, we are not a social-repairs society . . we are not here to change the world, just to be a good influence and upstanding neighbor . Being what I am, is, I believe, a thinking person's faith . What some might consider narrow-mindedness and removal from pagan and illigitimate religeous holidays and perversions is to me a freedom to live and express my thoughts with knowlege that I am doing right and responding to a higher authority . However, a live-and-let-live person such as yourself seems to be somewhat incensed by my faith . . . for that I am sorry . I do not however apologize . I am what I am . Ask yourself: "Has Surferjoe46 changed now in your eyes and not worthy of your interaction . . . or do we all just continue getting along like before?" I am no different now compared to what I was yesterday . Did you change? Notice please, that I did not "spin" your statements?	SurferJoe46 (51)
486396	2006-11-17 19:41:00	Of course he would argue, he is in a cushy job for life. What price humility living like he does, whilst other Catholics starve. PJ:angry It fascinates me,humans ability to believe absolutely anything and for some of these beliefs to end up as gospel. Why is it,that we seem to need something to believe in?	Cicero (40)
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