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Thread ID: 74448	2006-11-23 00:32:00	Brash resigns	leonidas5 (2306)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
501368	2006-12-02 06:58:00	In that case,I agree and withdraw. Accepted :) I would advise though, that documented evidence is provided when naming someone as a blackguard, or when elliptically implying they cannot be believed. Now unlike critical analysises of scientific papers, of which I have refereed several in the past, in this case it is not possible to examine all the referenced documentation, ie the emails and the letters abstracted from the National Party, because they are not yet in the public domain. However for Brash to immediately talk of a "tissue of lies" is foolish, because a court of law could indeed order those emails etc to be presented. Hager just would not be so foolish as to invent a "tissue lies", so it is quite justifiable to assume the quotations are accurate. Whilst Hagers' running commentary could be questioned for impartiality, accuracy, bias etc or what-have-you, as no doubt certain parties will try to do as a smoke screen, :), the quoted passages from the documentation stand in their own right, unequivocally in my reading of them (so far). If the argument is raised that they have been taken out of context, then people who have not read the book could possibly be taken in and duped by damage control tactics for a while, but I doubt it in the long run. Of course, now Brash has gone, it was all a nine day wonder, and the shallow NZ media as ever will just move on to other things. By the new year it will be all forgotten :rolleyes:	Terry Porritt (14)
501369	2006-12-02 07:53:00	Oh no! Not another New year! I haven't got this one sorted out yet.	R2x1 (4628)
501370	2006-12-07 05:41:00	I am still inclined towards Brash........ A few months ago, Hager fed the line to a Sunday paper that the SIS had infiltrated the Maori Party. Subsequent investigation proved that claim to be, in Helen Clark's words, a "work of fiction". Mr Hager specializes in outrageous claims. Nobody should take them too seriously. As indicated earlier, there are lots of statements in Hager's book with which I disagree strongly. I do not intend to comment further on the issue until the police form a view on who stole the emails which provide some of the titillating material in the book. From a Brash letter to me.	Cicero (40)
501371	2006-12-07 06:47:00	He has an article in todays Dominion Post entitled 'E-mail and allegations - the Brash version', unfortunately it is not reproduced in 'stuff'. However it seems just as pathetic as the one by Richard Long of 5th December, as a rebuttal to Hagers' book. I reckon I could do a better job :) www.stuff.co.nz Both deny the emails were supplied by disaffected National Party people but insist they were either stolen in some way, by unauthorised persons from NP computers, hacked from the parliamentary server or other illicit means, "industrial espionage" , but with as yet "not a shred of evidence" as the popular political phrase goes. Neither of them are able to conceive that there could actually have been disaffection within the ranks, both are so convinced of their own "rightness". Brash is still largely denying knowledge about the Bretheren involvement despite a wealth of documented e-mails, in addition to the 24 May 2005 one he cannot recall seeing. He alleges that the "one of the over-riding themes of the book is that Don Brash was and is a puppet of the "extreme right wing".." Quite the contrary in my reading, the book plainly alleges he is the extreme right wing, and all the skullduggery illustrated in copious documentation was the spin doctors portrayal of him as mild mannered, mainstream, centrist, non-political person (he stood twice for East Coast Bays in the 80s), because they knew the public didn't want a bar of his extreme right wing policies, or "Rogernomics phase III" as it was called. Brashs' comments about Hager and the SIS are tangential, and nothing to do with the book, and the emails contained therein, therefore have no relevance to the matter at hand. (Nothing would be said about the SIS anyway except denials, that is the way the system works, after all it is meant to Secret :) ) The documentation revealed in the book is the essence, no amount of smoke and mirrors, elliptical and tangential talk, sniping at the messenger, down playing the documentation as "titilating, can alter what was said and written by Brash and his associates.	Terry Porritt (14)
501372	2006-12-07 19:09:00	Should have known better than to try and enlighten a leftie. A cotradiction in terms.	Cicero (40)
501373	2006-12-07 21:58:00	Should have known better than to try and enlighten a leftie. A cotradiction in terms. I haven't yet seen you put forward any valid argument to create "enlightenment", except quoting yet more Brash spin :) I will remind you that the book is all about political deception, "A study in the politics of deception" is the sub title, and how it was practised by the National Party, with a mass of documentation illustrating the techniques used. The purpose of the deceptions was to get the National Party elected with Don Brash as Prime Minister, and to hide from the public the true extent of their 'far right' agenda, as they knew they couldn't win an election with a far right platform based on carrying on the Rogernomics 'reforms'. Just one of the deceptions was the re-packaging of Brash as a centrist. So successful were the deceptions, that even Roderick Deane wrote to Key, copied to Brash, "gravely disconcerted" that National Policy had backed away from privatisation, de-regulation, greater flexibility for the private sector, etc, which he had been encouraged the National Government would pursue, "from private discussions with Don and yourself...." ( documented on page 228/229). The so-called rebuttals by Brash in the Dom Post article are themselves examples of (pathetic) elliptical spin. Let me quote another example, the 'puppet' spin has already been dealt with, I can't be bothered with the others: "To the best of my knowledge members of the Exclusive Brethren did not contribute financially to the National Party at any level, though it is true that in some electorates they were actively involved in helping to erect billboards and distribute National Party pamphlets. Nothing about that assistance was in any way illegal". The spin here is to sidestep the main issue of the Brethren funding a 1 million dollar election campaign in support of the National Party, which the documentation shows the National Party hierarchy and Brash knew all about "months before the election campaign", but "who would later earnestly deny any knowledge". (Chapter 1) There are laws governing third party political expenditure, the book explains. The other issue possibly raised by this involves the ongoing "pretence" that MPs do not know who (major) anonymous donors are. Chapter 15 makes pretty clear that major anonymous donors are indeed cultivated and known. Neither Brash nor Long have rebutted the main theme of the book which is political deception, and the methods used. Long in his article was concerned about Cullen using the words 'Hollow Men' as evidence of a conspiracy, whilst Brash in your extract went on about the SIS. So what I expect from you Cic, is to buy the book, grit your teeth, and no matter how distasteful it may be for you to read something written by a 'blackguard', digest, and then present cogent rebuttals. :) :thumbs:	Terry Porritt (14)
501374	2006-12-07 22:17:00	Can we PLEASE just let this DROP. It is over & done with. No amount of dissecting & argueing will make any difference. I am silly enough not to push the OFF button PJ	Poppa John (284)
501375	2006-12-07 23:45:00	Can we PLEASE just let this DROP. It is over & done with. No amount of dissecting & argueing will make any difference. I am silly enough not to push the OFF button PJ No, not at all, what a silly notion, no one says you must read this thread :) How did you get the idea it is over and done with? It is not going to go away, it will be with us until at least next election, may as well live with it. If the moderators want to lock the thread, then that is ok.	Terry Porritt (14)
501376	2006-12-07 23:51:00	Crawls back into dark deep hole, totally crushed & put in place. PJ :blush:	Poppa John (284)
501377	2006-12-08 21:34:00	Now that he has actually resigned, do the Labour Party have to keep paying him?	R2x1 (4628)
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