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| Thread ID: 74962 | 2006-12-11 21:53:00 | Fuel Injector Cleaner | smithie 38 (6684) | PC World Chat |
| Post ID | Timestamp | Content | User | ||
| 505966 | 2006-12-12 22:25:00 | Interesting coincidence to see this thread, as I just yesterday -- for the first time ever -- bought a bottle of fuel injector cleaner for my 1999 Nissan Maxima (A32 model). I've long had problems with a lumpy idle and faltering under load. When I asked Nissan to address it during a service, they replaced all kinds of stuff (fuel filter, spark plugs) charging me a king's ransom and it made very little difference. The technician admitted he didn't know what the problem was. A knock sensor had been replaced some months before and they assured me that wasn't faulty. When I collected my car he mentioned in passing that maybe they could clean the injectors if I wanted to bring it back, but I was really irritated at having got nowhere at great cost, so I was going to just put up with it. Then I happened to see injector cleaner in a piece of Repco junk mail, so next time I filled up with gas a bought one and tipped it in. I'm very suspicious of that kind of thing, but I thought it was a lot cheaper than paying a tech to do the same thing. So you'll have a real-life independent test from me. It was only yesterday, so I'm not surprised there's no change yet. I'll let you know. Chainey. |
chainey (9225) | ||
| 505967 | 2006-12-12 22:39:00 | Hi All For your info all fuel comes out of the same tanks but the fuel companies add their own ingredient to their road tankers, (techron etc) The majority of fuel comes from Marsden Point with the occasional tanker from overseas. So everyone gets the same base fuel. I know because I work part time discharging tankers. |
Arnie (6624) | ||
| 505968 | 2006-12-19 04:59:00 | The congealed vapors make the injector "urinate" instead of making a good spray pattern ... Well, that would explain the piss-poor performance. Half the tank gone and no improvement from the injector cleaner. Still, might be too early to judge. |
chainey (9225) | ||
| 505969 | 2006-12-19 16:39:00 | "Techron" from Chevron is a pretty good additive, and it is about the same chemical that General Motors (GM) uses to clean their customers' cars when they come in for service at dealerships. "Sea-Foam" is very much like "Techron" and it really works. I heartily recommend placing a can or so into a 1/2 full tank and running it down to 1/4, and then add a second can and refill the tank with gas. This will give a really strong dose upfront, and a fairly strong dose in the next full tank. If this doesn't do it for you, then possibly replacement of the injectors might be at hand. All the stuff you did: spark plugs, filters, etc are just maintenance and NOT repairs. Remember that when you are seeking the cause of your poor economy and performance. FYI: most of the "gypsy" fuel stations with generic names are not selling a first-line product...but sometimes a vastly inferior fuel. "End runs", mixed bags and unformulated or missing additives are what they get to sell. The big names will not allow inferior fuels to be sold under their banner....they'd get sued if someone found out they got engine damage from such a product. Don't worry about water...in 40+ years I've only seen water in a couple of gas tanks, and it never causes much problem until it becomes a large amount and the rust it causes in the tanks and lines are the real problem. Acids and slurry can actually damage the injectors, hence the warning to change fuel filters at regular intervals no matter what brand of fuel one buys. Some water exists in all tanks as a process of condensation collected when you open the tank to refuel, and some ECS or vapor recovery systems (that are not maintained) can also allow the incursion of atmospheric moisture on your vehicle. You seem to be past the "maintenance" stage and are now in the "repair-itive" stage at this point. Stick with a logical program of wait-and-see at this point and don't expect overnight success...you may however need to replace the injectors eventually...they are cheap enough and there are rebuilts out there for you (which, BTW, are very good quality as they are all matched from the rebuilder much better than originally installed ones). Please keep posting updates and let us know how things are working out.... keep your stick on the ice. :blush: |
SurferJoe46 (51) | ||
| 505970 | 2006-12-20 09:00:00 | Thanks for your advice . You seem to know a lot more than the bozos at Nissan . My point about the plugs and filter is that although they are normal maintenance items, they were not yet due and were replaced as a guess at the problem and at great labour expense . I wanted to get the problem with the car fixed in order to trade it up, but after all the money I've spent now I have to keep it -- and it's *still* not fixed . I've always taken it to Nissan, knowing I was paying extra, but figuring the extra expertise and equipment they ought to have would be worth the extra cost, but I find they were just guessing -- the corner garage could have done that guessing a lot cheaper . They should have phoned me and said, look we don't know what it is, do you want to try replacing these things and this is what it'll cost . As for rebuilding the injectors, I still don't know if they are the problem and so I could be a few hundred more bucks in the hole and *still* not have a solution . I'll wait till the injector cleaner has had time to do its mojo, and if no better, I'll try Caltex, which I think has Techron . I'll also look out for Seafoam, but I haven't heard of it before -- it could be under another name in this market . (By the way, it really irritates me how products are renamed for different English-speaking markets . What's the point? Extra costs for branding and marketing materials and a lot of trans-national confusion in contexts like the internet) |
chainey (9225) | ||
| 505971 | 2006-12-20 22:03:00 | I see you've learned that the dealer "factory-trained" mechanics are just guessers . They hide behind the skirts of the service writer and you really never get to see them . Might be a safety thing so you won't shoot them on the roads to and from work if you could recognize them . Anyway . . . yes . . I agree that the dealership SHOULD have called and told you that they were just taking a guesstimate and that they were perfectly happy throwing your money down the rabbit hole . Maybe the service manager had a yacht payment to make . That activity is illegal in the US . Maybe it should be in NZ too . Dealers have to make all the overhead and salary and insurance and advertising and uniforms and pay the secretary's "medical problems" out of the profit from the service bays . You don't think they can afford all that glitter from selling cars, do you? Stay away from them like a plague . . . find a shop where you can get to see the actual person who works on your car and try to trust them . . . remembering that everyone gets a few mistakes . Work up a communication with them and let them have the opportunity to prove they deserve your account . They should be ready to fall over backwards to make sure you get what you pay for . Doctors get to bury their mistakes . . . mechanics have theirs come back on tow trucks . Somehow mechanics have it much worse with hundreds of new models and design changes . . . doctors only have two models . . . OK . . . in Hollywood there are a few others, but they are a minority and tend to die early anyway . |
SurferJoe46 (51) | ||
| 505972 | 2006-12-21 04:48:00 | 3) Vapors from the alcohol congeal in the nozzles and also the throttle plate and ISC motor, making them gummy. If it congeals, it ain't alcohol! Either that or it is dissolving/transporting other substances in the fuel system that then go gummy. Apart from the human brain, alcohol doesn't gum up anything. Cheers Billy 8-{) Caveat: I have zero years in the automotive industry, so there is a slight possibility I could be wrong, but not about the properties of ethanol though. |
Billy T (70) | ||
| 505973 | 2006-12-21 05:32:00 | If it congeals, it ain't alcohol! Either that or it is dissolving/transporting other substances in the fuel system that then go gummy . Apart from the human brain, alcohol doesn't gum up anything . Cheers Billy 8-{) Caveat: I have zero years in the automotive industry, so there is a slight possibility I could be wrong, but not about the properties of ethanol though . Close . . . but only 1/2 a point . . . However . . . . . . . . in just the use of ethanol, it is degrading to some plastic or rubber parts of fuel delivery systems designed to use gasoline (petrol), and has 37% less energy per gallon or litre than gasoline/petrol . Methanol is even more corrosive and its energy per liter is 55% lower than that of petrol . High compression ratios and corrosion-resistant materials can overcome these issues, but require extensive engine modification . Alcohol is pretty good at leaving a residue . . . I've seen it and I know you have too . . . it isn't pure . . . at least not that which is used as an additive for fuel . We are talking about aliphatic alcohols (methanol, ethanol, propanol, and butanol) . Another consideration: all of the alcohols contain an oxygen atom bonded to a hydrogen atom in the hydroxyl radical . When the alcohol is burned, the hydroxyl combines with a hydrogen atom to form a molecule of water . Thus, the oxygen contained in the alcohol contributes nothing to the fuel value . However, the water is very corrosive as either steam or a catalyst to other complex chemical reactions that an internal combustion engine is not designed . It also contains . . pardon my organic chemistry dumbness here . . . . . certain less-aerobic esters and monomers and corrosion inhibitors that are added to insure less evaportion and destruction to/in the fuel tank . I believe these are added to increase the surface tension and keep the alcohol from floating away . . molecularly, that is . I know that green soap is added for that reason to these motor fuels . Now, part of that soup included in the manufacturing process has acetone, acetic acid, and a number of other substances . These by-products are difficult and expensive to remove, and, if left in the methanol, they will quickly corrode an engine internally, not even considering the fuel supply system! You as well as I know that there is a price consideration here . If it costs too much to make, and then they have to pour more money into the product to purify it . . . well, they won't! There is also the thirst and attraction that alcohol has for common moisture . . . and we know that isn't pure either . All in all, alcohol has the tendency to attract pollutants and then (again) it is a very corrosive chemical soup that then is dangerous to elements in the fuel supply system . Plastics, differing metals and alloys of metals, dielectric breakdown caused by the galvanic activity of water in a diversified metal container and the slurry developed are all dangerous to the injectors . Actually, you are pretty right on about alcohol itself . . . I just dumbed-down my response to keep it easy to understand, sorry! We found phosphoric acid and lead oxides and tin leached from the galvanizing in the tanks from the alcohol and water combo . We found elastomers removed from diaphrams and hoses, causing them to be embrittled very early in their duty life cycle in ways that they were not designed to resist . These dissolved "chemicals" and flotsum in the fuel supply were not originally designed to be filtered out by the existing systems . They form the congealed deposits that we found all the time . I have seen nozzles on the Bosch style injectors completely shrouded by a thick hardened plastic-y deposit that would not yield to less than physical removal with a pocket knife . I didn't mean to incite a chemistry lesson . . . thanks for keeping me honest . . . . . |
SurferJoe46 (51) | ||
| 505974 | 2006-12-21 08:54:00 | Looks like I'd better consider going to university if I want to solve (and dissolve) my injector problems. | chainey (9225) | ||
| 505975 | 2006-12-21 09:00:00 | chainy....what makes you think its an injector problem ? | tweak'e (69) | ||
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