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Thread ID: 75112	2006-12-17 00:37:00	NZ Education System going downhill	somebody (208)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
507282	2006-12-21 00:56:00	Thankyou Aurelias and Somebody for your interesting posts. Most illuminating. I have the impression that modern education tries not to impose parrot fashion regurgitation of facts but rather, at least at primary level, encourages children to think all around a subject. However, as Somebody says there are certain subjects which are black and white - chemistry, mathematics, biology etc and exams test the students knowledge under pressure. I think a mix of exams and internal assessment does work. Governments do their best but we forget that the real power in society lies with career civil servants. When a particular theory gains credence then it gets implemented. Terry has pointed to this in education, above. Ironically the dumbing down of education has been brought about by well meaning liberals. We live in a global age. We need to have global quality qualifications.	Winston001 (3612)
507283	2006-12-21 05:02:00	Thankyou Aurelias and Somebody for your interesting posts . Most illuminating . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Agreed, two most excellent posts . However, without any implication of denigration, I hope to be excused if I say this is all "old hat" :) A certain age is reached when one realises the same record has been played many times, and the problems have still not yet been resolved, and not just in matters educational . I remember having the same sort of debates at work in the 60s and 70s, finding answers to the worlds problems as one is wont to do, with much the same arguments about falling educational standards . Of course "the baby boomers" put pressure on the educational system, and in the UK many new universities were built to cope with the natural increase in population, as well as the millions of immigrants that were coming in from the late 40s onwards, so the early 60s, saw what I'd say was the start of the dumbing down process . I can remember from 1960s Institute of Physics Bulletins or was it the educational supplement, and other sources, how the Universities were complaining about having to teach many first year students the topics that should have been covered in their last year at school . Then when we came to New Zealand, the principal at the time of Heretaunga College complained that they had to spend time bringing pupils from Intermediate up to the level expected to be able to cope with first year at secondary school . Another thing that had me totally perplexed was the notion in NZ that School Certificate marks had to be adjusted so that 50% passed and 50% failed . I also heard the story, including from my own, that going from "5th form" to "6th form" was a very big jump for very many pupils and they had difficulties coping . I am not surprised . I showed my boys my "3rd form" physics and maths note books from way back, and the level was around what they had been doing for School Certificate . pupils at school, students at tertiary level :) ] In the UK we had the most evil of characters, a certain vile Labour MP, by the name of Anthony Crossland, who in the 1960s vowed that "I'll get rid of the Grammar Schools if it is the last f . . ing thing I do", and to the everlasting detriment of the country he did just that . So, the so-called educational reforms weren't all carried out by well intentioned liberals, not by any means . There was a concerted effort to drag down the best to the level of the worst (or least able, if you like) by those driven by distorted political ideas of greed, envy, and hatred of competitive achievement . In the 70s (I think) GCSE, General Certficate of Secondary Education was introduced in the UK as a lesser, easier alternative to GCE or School Certificate as it had been called up to 1949 . This was so "everyone" could have a piece of paper . Now, it is only GCSE, and GCE has gone (I think) . Very much the same debates rage there as here . I'm sure the so-called reformers all come out of the same hat . It is interesting to ponder just when or if there was a 'golden age' in education . I look back on the greats of yesteryear, and the great physicists of the early 1900s . They were wholly educated people in philosophy, the arts, languages, maths . They had to be able to write their theses in Latin . I can't really imagine Rutherford communicating in txt spk . The exam versus assessment debate is also quite old . My own view is that there is nothing wrong with pressure or stress of exams, and that externally moderated exams/qualifications offers portability, "global quality qualifications" as Winston says . When the chips are down, some people can cope, some can't, that's life . If very few can understand what NCEA means in this country, what hope is there of anyone in any other country understanding or accepting such qualifications?	Terry Porritt (14)
507284	2006-12-21 21:51:00	[QUOTE=Terry Porritt;509161] Another thing that had me totally perplexed was the notion in NZ that School Certificate marks had to be adjusted so that 50% passed and 50% failed. /QUOTE] Good points Terry - I agree with most of them but the problem with the scaling with 50% pass rate has always puzzled me. People just don't seem able to understand it. But it is quite simple - logical and useful. Now if I set an exam for "mouse breeding" one year and 50% of the pupils pass then I am happy - but if the next year I set a slightly harder exam and only15% pass then I should be aware that the exam is at fault. It is highly unlikely that the pupils ability will have changed so much. So scaling is applied. But of course it was never set at 50% for all subjects - it should be obvious that anybody sitting Latin or Classic Greek etc has already proved themselves to be an exceptional student - so the rating should be about 75% - 80% or even higher. In my day (1948) we had something called "Advanced Maths" for those who had shown exceptional ability in the subject. It nearly killed me but I managed to scrape a pass. Again obviously a 50% fail rate would have been pretty stupid. Tom	Thomas01 (317)
507285	2006-12-21 22:17:00	I can just about see some logic in the 50% pass rate, but not much, well not much as compared with the system as it used to be in UK . The problem I suppose was calling it School Certificate, UK School Certificate (or GCE) was not the same as NZ School Certificate, like comparing apples and oranges . The UK School Certificate exams at "Ordinary Level" and at "Advanced Level" were moderated and basically set by the universities . There were different exams of more or less the same level set by different authorities . I can only remember now the area board I was in, The Northern Universities Joint Matriculation Board, but there was an Oxford/Cambridge board, and of course the University of London "Matriculation" exams . There was no scaling like in NZ . The level of the exams was such that no way could 50% of the school population pass, probably, and this is just a guess, about 20% . This was why the reformers wanted to get rid of the School cert, and replace it with something less elite .	Terry Porritt (14)
507286	2006-12-21 22:23:00	First NCEA instead of real exams. Then txt allowed in NCEA tests. Now no exams. ANd the demolished apprenticeship structure. Morons will be in charge in a few years.... What do you mean,"in a few years"?	Cicero (40)
507287	2006-12-21 23:32:00	The ethic which drives modern educational thinkers is to encourage all pupils/students. They recognise that there is a vast spread of abilities and the old School Certificate system effectively imposed winners and losers with the pass - fail results. With NCEA they hope to reward effort and identify specific areas that the pupil has ability in. Knowing that you are good at something is encouraging, even if it is picking up rubbish or laying a table. I can't argue against the generosity of this ethic. Where we have gone wrong IMHO is that pupils as a consequence are told or by osmosis pick up that they are all winners and can all aspire to white collar jobs. It just ain't so. Thus we have a dearth of mechanics, plumbers, drainlayers, fitters and turners, electricians etc etc. Dirty hands-on work - who'd want to do that??	Winston001 (3612)
507288	2006-12-22 00:23:00	Is it ethical to be blind to common sense,I think not.	Cicero (40)
507289	2006-12-22 00:50:00	I agree with the proposition that is the subject of this thread, and with the conservative views of most of the posts, but I don't worry about such things anymore, and I'll tell you why: I would sooner that NZ had very high educational standards and a literate, skilled, highly educated workforce -- however my fellow NZers over several generations have not placed that as a priority in their voting choices, so I have to live with what we've got. What consolation can I take? It is simply this: The dumber the general population is, the smarter I look, the less competition I have, and the easier it is to get what I want. Whether I'm applying for a job, trying to win a customer, trying to obtain a loan, or any other interpersonal negotiation, my written and verbal communication skills give me an effortless edge over those who may be just as intelligent but have been deprived of adequate schooling. Consider the following (admittedly OTT) letter: "Deer sir wood u like 2 use my consulting servisis im real good and my customers have increased they're profits by using me their really rapped." Would you pay this person top dollar to come and work for you? Would you consider the possibility that he may actually be very competent and simply has poor grammar? No. appearances count. It's a natural human characteristic to make quick judgements on first impressions. Is the above letter so ridiculously unlikely? When I was at school the rot had already set in (we learned no formal grammar for instance), but even the dumbest fourteen-year-old would have laughed at someone who didn't know the difference between they're, their, and there. Now you see in this very forum every day posts from people who have been through ten years of state schooling and don't know (or should it be "no") the difference. As for the idiots taking charge, don't worry about that either. Except for in politics the highly educated always rise to the top. It will simply become a smaller and smaller group lording it over the great unwashed -- ironically the very opposite of what liberal educational theory was supposed to achieve. The heyday of egalitarianism was probably our grandparents' generation, when standards were high and school wasn't meant to be "fun", and yes, a whole lot of things were learned by rote -- things like literacy and numeracy; things they then got to use for their whole lives.	chainey (9225)
507290	2006-12-22 01:07:00	Just skimmed the thread, Not really worth reading a single post if the article I read the other day about the upswing over the last 20 years in intelligence of school leavers is indeed true. Meaning they have been educated to a better level then those that came before them. That, and the fact that we should call a spade a spade, Plenty of people will be factory workers, Shovel hands, Dish cleaners, Tradesmen, and I'm sure in most cases their quality of life will be just the same as those that stay in education for another 5 years before entering the adult arena. Life isn't measured by your pay packet or your score on some damn fool "intelligence" test. To many the nuances of the English language is meaningless and thats probably a better use of ones time then those that get upset about the downfall of mankind based on a hyphen out of place.	Metla (12)
507291	2006-12-22 01:16:00	It is simply this: The dumber the general population is, the smarter I look, the less competition I have, and the easier it is to get what I want. Whether I'm applying for a job, trying to win a customer, trying to obtain a loan, or any other interpersonal negotiation, my written and verbal communication skills give me an effortless edge over those who may be just as intelligent but have been deprived of adequate schooling. Unfortunately a dumber general population means that companies have smaller pools of skilled people to draw from, and we will hit a point where NZ simply does not have enough skilled, educated people to fulfill the jobs available. This will encourage companies to outsource to India (as an example), where there are large, qualified populations to draw from - not to mention significantly lower wages/salaries - a win win for the companies, a lose-lose for New Zealand.	somebody (208)
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