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Thread ID: 76968	2007-02-22 09:02:00	Broken car advice: What was likely caused by me? Long story. Any Mechanics out there?	Chilling_Silence (9)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
527160	2007-02-22 10:40:00	Thanks for the comments Rob, I actually asked the assessor if they'd be having it checked by a 3rd party after completion this time. He told me there was no way they'd be doing that and I would have to pay for that myself :( Say you are fully prepared to pay for the assessment, but if they find any further problems, that you would expect a refund of the assessment, and for the job to be completed properly. If you are selling it, an assessment to show your buyers could be a selling point You are getting jerked around. Maybe you should threaten Fair Go. It is now back on TV and looking for juicy stories.	rogerp (6864)
527161	2007-02-22 10:52:00	ndenz.com	Chilling_Silence (9)
527162	2007-02-22 11:08:00	I you ever want to know what is wrong with any car that you are buying or selling you take it to AA and they will do a check for about $85, the last time we did it in 2002. They give a written check list of every fault they find including compression check on the engine and more. Almost every time any of our cars have had work done at a garage it has been a shoddy job and expensive, I do most of the work myself now since we got charged $75 to have a small pipe on the radiator cooling system welded. They managed to cause a leak in the main radiator pipe (not the pipe they were supposed to be fixing) where it joins onto the radiator when they did the welding job, caused by rough handling. These are "A" grade mechanics I am talking about, rude buggers as well, I talked to the guy who did the job he was an ignorant bad mannered neanderthal.	zqwerty (97)
527163	2007-02-22 11:42:00	These are "A" grade mechanics I am talking about, "A" grade mechanics or "A" grade fitters as there are bugger all true "A" grade mechanics these days.	mikebartnz (21)
527164	2007-02-22 12:16:00	Anyways, to cut a long story very shortUm, excuse me?	Greg (193)
527165	2007-02-22 16:01:00	I'll throw in a penny or two here . . . I have worked for AAA as an inspector/adviser for accidents and the resulting damage and responsibility to the insurance company . . . and they DO try to get out of certain conditions if they can . . . so keep that in mind . Actually, I have worked both sides of the accidental damage situation, so I can see some more of the issues than the common "adjuster" might . In an accident . . as I think you alluded to in the first part of the report, the insurance company is required to return the vehicle to "OE" or as original condition . . . bear with that thought for a while . . . . on to other things . The accident was promulgated by the ABS failure . . which I find highly suspect . ABS is designed to default to a "non-op" condition where it removes itself from the control of the brakes and then the brakes resort to "non-ABS-type" design . OK . . where am I going? Here: I think, mind you I wasn't there, that you had a failure in the brakes (possibly the tone ring on the wheel that was later diagnosed as broken) and the ABS went to default condition when it could not get a decent signal from that tone ring, and when that happened, you felt the loss of control of the vehicle . Probably . . all the time you were driving it, the ABS had been making amended brake application (and programmed in) override of control . . and did so invisibly to you which is it's primary job . When it (the ABS) decided to quit, you lost it in a turn resulting in substantial damage to your vehicle . . . is this about right so far? NOW . . the tricky part: The resulting loss of braking control and the damage done to your vehicle was the direct result of the ABS going off as it was intended if it gets swamped with too much request for override . (Hondas are notorious for this if one drives hard in twisting roads and the tone wheels send very different values to the ABS computer, resulting in shutting off the ABS as it is designed to do in such situations, and returning the ultimate control to the nut behind the wheel . ) From that point it is all downhill if you are used to having the "man-in-the-box" control your brakes . . . shocking to some people as they then find the brakes are very different from what they are used to . As for the insurance angle . . . . they are probably required to repair (to original specs from the manufacturer) the vehicle from the resulting accident . . . rims, wheels, suspension parts, tires . . whatever! Insurance is grossly misunderstood by almost everybody . In a nutshell: You are betting that you are going to have an accident, and your insurance company is betting you won't . You pay money to get into this "game" and you lose if you never have an accident . . . you win if you do . . . kinda backwards, I know . . . . but that's truly the way to look at it . If you (the bettee) have an accident, then you're covered by payments to return you to the playing table again unless you die . Repairing your car . . . in actuarial tables is most productive to the casino (insurance company), as you have had your "accident" that will not occur for X number of cycles, and you are an even better "bet" or sucker now as you probably will not have an accident for quite a while . . . . all the while you are betting that you will indeed do it again! And on to the "A" class mechanics . . . why didn't they just find the original culprit and exacerbating agent in the accident? This is their fault! You have a bag of worms here . . . and I don't envy you the situation . . . but I can probably condense this to a list (I like lists) 1) Take the results of the claim to the insurance company, and tell them what you know about the accident . . . and what you know to be the extent of their responsibility to at least return your vehicle to "as-built" condition . You may have to be settled with returning the car to normal height here, even though the insurance company KNEW of the mods . . . it doesn't matter if the parts you have on the vehicle don't meet the original designs or NZ standards . . (where they certified as legal modifications? If not, then you might lose all your rights to subrogation here . ) . . . and therefor they have all the rights to do just that . I would try to rescind the situation as it stands and insist on starting all over . 2) The original "A" dudes blew it . Obviously they had no real experience in diagnosis of ABS systems and did not recognize the originating problem . 3) The buyer of the vehicle is blameless here . . . he just wanted to buy a vehicle and he has no direct implication in any damages you should seek from the insurance company . . . but MIGHT have exacerbated the results of the screwed up sale of the vehicle by you . . . and therefor is liable for some punitive damages, at least return of payments and fund lost in that transaction . 4) ABS diagnosis is not brain surgery . It is obvious with an appropriate scanner and a skilled tech . Repairs are checked all along the repair route and they stop as they find things repaired and correctly working . . . it's a logic tree that they failed to use or implement . Hopefully, I got the gist of your original problem . . . sorry if I didn't . . . this would be a lot easier on the phone with live voice communications . . . there are a lot of loose ends to resolve here and texting or IM's don't do it well . You are the injured party here . . . financially and logically . . . and this is not un-resolvable . . . just very complicated by having a nit picker for a buyer and incompetence of "A" techs and an insurance company in the middle of it all . I feel sorry you got into this mess . . but here in the US you would have sued everybody by now and let a (un-informed) judge throw all logic into the crapper and you'd probably loose your shirt anyway . Modified vehicles are the bane of the repair industry and those in accidents are even worse to mitigate for damages . Add in stupidity and ignorance of ABS, a buyer, and you get another copy of "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" type movie . I think the repair shop was over their heads for technical expertise and they blew it . . class "A" or not, they are responsible as the last "professional person" under the hood . I think they didn't know HOW to fix the modified suspension, didn't spot the rims and rear control arms, and tried to install non-modded parts to a vehicle and failed to complete the repairs on all four corners of the vehicle . The certification was a ruse to get them off the hook for the repairs by further muddying up the waters . ("We had this inspected by a NZ-legal and licensed inspector, and we are out of the loop of liability now" thing) . I feel for you . Really! Seriously! I would have had suggestions in an earlier life, but I gave all that up of late .	SurferJoe46 (51)
527166	2007-02-22 20:26:00	Who are the 2 insurance companies? I'd insist that it go to mechanic B for the repairs and NOT mechanic A who is obviously useless. And I'd fight them on it.	pctek (84)
527167	2007-02-22 22:57:00	Take them to Fair Go. I'm looking for a good story to watch on that program. Trevor :) BTW I get message saying title is to long shorten to 85 characters to be able to post.	Trev (427)
527168	2007-02-23 10:12:00	Hi Chill, Surfer Joe may have covered it in his post in different words, but if I understand you correctly the accident happened as a result of a fault in the vehicle's ABS. Your insurers are required to repair the accident damage, not fix the fault that resulted in the accident. Could it be the issues you are facing now perhaps existed in some way prior to the accident, perhaps immediately before impact, or were bound to have occurred? This may need clarification. Another thing I thought of ... you mention you struck the curb on the 'other' side of the road after crossing two lanes. Did you hit the right hand side of the vehicle or spun around to face the way you came? I ask as the damage is on the left side of the vehicle and I would have thought the impact would have been on the right hand side if you went across the road? As an insurance loss adjuster (fire & general - not vehicle but the premise is the same) my advice is to get an independent report on the issues (you already have that from the purchaser's Mechanic B) and insist that if the insurance company want to 'put it right' that you want it independently re-checked. VTNZ may be able to offer assistance, perhaps on the understanding that you will pay for the test if there's nothing wrong with it or your insurers will pay if there are issues. Speak to the claim handler's manager, expressing your disatisfaction with the whole claim procedure. Contrary to all to popular belief not all insurers are out there to make things difficult, they're bound by legislation to do things right. You are required to follow the insurer's internal complaints procedure before taking it further (ombudsman or Fair Go). In my experience another party wont get involved unless you follow the internal complaint procedure, as it's law. PM me if I can assist in any way mate.	Jester (13)
527169	2007-02-23 21:22:00	Thanks Jester mate, Yes, the vehicle spun right around and hit the kerb on the left-hand side. I also understand they're not required to repair a fault in the ABS (And they wouldnt), but re-mounting the sensors wrong after using them for diagnosis isnt a requirement either ;) Might just hafta fork out for VTNZ to check it over afterwards, its only $35, and for peace of mind... Fair Go sounds like an interesting suggestion :D SurferJoe, thanks for your response, appreciate you taking the time to help mate... I'll read over everything shortly and do a great big reply :) Just heading out to breakfast with the Mrs in my other el-cheapo runaround car I had to buy coz the MX5 wass off the road for so long :P Cheers Chill.	Chilling_Silence (9)
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