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Thread ID: 78522	2007-04-18 19:34:00	This Could Happen In NZ (Long Post!)	SurferJoe46 (51)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
542161	2007-04-18 19:34:00	I compiled a few articles, c/p'd a few more and added a secret vendetta of my own here, but I think it's a good read and also the writing on the wall for the whole world if SoCal gets away with this . . . . . :mad: :mad: As touted, Ethanol, widely assumed to be a greenhouse-gas-cutting fuel, would have serious health effects if heavily used in cars, producing more ground-level ozone than gasoline, particularly in the Los Angeles Basin, according to a Stanford University study out today . "Ethanol is being promoted as a clean and renewable fuel that will reduce global warming and air pollution," said Mark Z . Jacobson, an associate professor of civil and environmental engineering and author of the study in the online edition of Environmental Science and Technology . "But our results show that a high blend of ethanol poses an equal or greater risk to public health than gasoline, which already causes significant health damage . " Ozone is a key ingredient in smog, and when inhaled even at low levels it can harm lungs, aggravate asthma and impair immune systems . The health effects from ethanol use are the same whether it is made from corn or other plant products, Jacobson found . Production of corn for this fuel, since it is the highest yield of plant sugar that easily converts to alcohol, will consume almost all arable land areas for just one crop . This leave little or no land for other food crops or animal husbandry . Other sugar-laden crops are not as useful as the percentages of sugar or redundancy of yield (multiple harvests) are insufficient to promote any of them at this time . The study determined that a 9% increase in ozone-related deaths would occur in Greater Los Angeles, and a 4% increase nationally, by 2020 if a form of ethanol called E85, were used instead of gasoline . In the Southeast, by contrast, mortality rates would decrease slightly . The type of fuel used in the study — 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline — emits less greenhouse gases than other types, some researchers say . "Today, there is a lot of investment in ethanol," Jacobson said . "The question is, if we're not getting any health benefits, then why continue to promote ethanol?" Using a computer model to simulate air quality in 2020 — when ethanol-fueled vehicles are expected to be widely available in the United States — with a focus on Los Angeles, this study is the first to combine emissions data with multiple other variables, including climate, population density and current amounts of air pollution, he said . "The chemicals that come out of a tailpipe are affected by a variety of factors, including chemical reactions, temperatures, sunlight, clouds, wind and precipitation," he said . "Overall, health effects depend on exposure to these airborne chemicals, which varies from region to region… . Since Los Angeles has historically been the most polluted airshed in the U . S . , the test bed for nearly all U . S . air pollution regulation and home to about 6% of the U . S . population, it is also ideal for a more detailed study," Jacobson wrote . President Bush has made increased use of ethanol and other alternative fuels a centerpiece of his strategy to increase reliance on domestic fuels while reducing greenhouse gas emissions . Mexico, South America and parts of Africa are reeling from rabid buyers who are taking all the local corn crops to the US for conversion . In this great corn-grab, local economies are not getting richer; they are losing food staples and lifestyles are being severely impeded for lack of indigenous crops to fuel the US's vehicle fleet . In his State of the Union address in January, Bush called for annual national production of 35 billion gallons of ethanol by 2017, up from 5 billion gallons in 2006 and nearly five times the target set by Congress . The president's deputy press secretary requested a copy of Jacobson's study Tuesday but had no immediate comment . Kristen Hellmer, a spokeswoman for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, said she had not had a chance to review the study, but reiterated the administration's catechism for support of ethanol production . "I think there are pollutants that contribute to ozone which may slightly increase as a result of more ethanol use, which can be managed by tools which we have available under the Clean Air Act," Hellmer said . Jennifer Wood of the U . S . Environmental Protection Agency echoed those same remarks in an e-mail . "While EPA has not fully reviewed the study, the agency's experience and analysis in developing renewable-fuel standards contradicts the underlying assumptions of the study," she wrote . "The increased use of renewable fuels, like E85, will significantly reduce greenhouse gas, benzene and carbon monoxide emissions while strengthening our nation's energy security and supporting American farming communities . We just have to find enough crop to sustain our needs somewhere in the world . This is a terrific opportunity for some third-world nation to really become rich and affluent on the coattails of our vehicular needs, continuing, "The pollutants that contribute to ozone, which may slightly increase as a result of additional ethanol use, can be managed by the suite of effective tools available under the Clean Air Act . " With that diatribe, the onus of keeping particulate emissions from the atmosphere fall again on Detroit to install and enervate new technology to clean up what they (the politicians) cannot do, but are quite capable of mandating as law . California Air Resources Board spokeswoman Gennet Paauwe said staff researchers are designing their own study to examine potential effects of ethanol on air pollution and health . Results are expected by 2050, she says . Jacobson said there are already an estimated 5,000 premature U . S . deaths annually tied to ozone exposure, in spite of Clean Air Act regulations . He said that he had assumed large reductions in emissions by 2020 because of more stringent air regulations, but that even then, there were significant health risks . Brooke Coleman, director of the Renewable Energy Action Project in San Francisco, said Jacobson was a respected air quality expert but criticized him for saying there would be increased deaths from E85 and smog . "He is ignoring the fact that E85 greatly reduces emissions that are much more harmful to humans than smog, such as toxics and soot (particulates)", Coleman said in an e-mail . Jacobson replied that "there is no evidence available to indicate that particulate matter will decrease with the use of E85… . The effect of E85 on increasing mortality is firmly grounded in science based on information available today, and not misleading . What is misleading is the claims made to date that ethanol will improve air quality and health . " Thirty states, so far, have public E85 fueling stations . Most are in the Midwest . California has one, in San Diego . :mad: :mad:	SurferJoe46 (51)
542162	2007-04-19 12:43:00	I compiled a few articles, c/p'd a few more and added a secret vendetta of my own here, but I think it's a good read and also the writing on the wall for the whole world if SoCal gets away with this . . . . . :mad: :mad: As touted, Ethanol, widely assumed to be a greenhouse-gas-cutting fuel, would have serious health effects if heavily used in cars, producing more ground-level ozone than gasoline, particularly in the Los Angeles Basin, according to a Stanford University study out today . "Ethanol is being promoted as a clean and renewable fuel that will reduce global warming and air pollution," said Mark Z . Jacobson, an associate professor of civil and environmental engineering and author of the study in the online edition of Environmental Science and Technology . "But our results show that a high blend of ethanol poses an equal or greater risk to public health than gasoline, which already causes significant health damage . " Ozone is a key ingredient in smog, and when inhaled even at low levels it can harm lungs, aggravate asthma and impair immune systems . The health effects from ethanol use are the same whether it is made from corn or other plant products, Jacobson found . Production of corn for this fuel, since it is the highest yield of plant sugar that easily converts to alcohol, will consume almost all arable land areas for just one crop . This leave little or no land for other food crops or animal husbandry . Other sugar-laden crops are not as useful as the percentages of sugar or redundancy of yield (multiple harvests) are insufficient to promote any of them at this time . The study determined that a 9% increase in ozone-related deaths would occur in Greater Los Angeles, and a 4% increase nationally, by 2020 if a form of ethanol called E85, were used instead of gasoline . In the Southeast, by contrast, mortality rates would decrease slightly . The type of fuel used in the study — 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline — emits less greenhouse gases than other types, some researchers say . "Today, there is a lot of investment in ethanol," Jacobson said . "The question is, if we're not getting any health benefits, then why continue to promote ethanol?" Using a computer model to simulate air quality in 2020 — when ethanol-fueled vehicles are expected to be widely available in the United States — with a focus on Los Angeles, this study is the first to combine emissions data with multiple other variables, including climate, population density and current amounts of air pollution, he said . "The chemicals that come out of a tailpipe are affected by a variety of factors, including chemical reactions, temperatures, sunlight, clouds, wind and precipitation," he said . "Overall, health effects depend on exposure to these airborne chemicals, which varies from region to region… . Since Los Angeles has historically been the most polluted airshed in the U . S . , the test bed for nearly all U . S . air pollution regulation and home to about 6% of the U . S . population, it is also ideal for a more detailed study," Jacobson wrote . President Bush has made increased use of ethanol and other alternative fuels a centerpiece of his strategy to increase reliance on domestic fuels while reducing greenhouse gas emissions . Mexico, South America and parts of Africa are reeling from rabid buyers who are taking all the local corn crops to the US for conversion . In this great corn-grab, local economies are not getting richer; they are losing food staples and lifestyles are being severely impeded for lack of indigenous crops to fuel the US's vehicle fleet . In his State of the Union address in January, Bush called for annual national production of 35 billion gallons of ethanol by 2017, up from 5 billion gallons in 2006 and nearly five times the target set by Congress . The president's deputy press secretary requested a copy of Jacobson's study Tuesday but had no immediate comment . Kristen Hellmer, a spokeswoman for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, said she had not had a chance to review the study, but reiterated the administration's catechism for support of ethanol production . "I think there are pollutants that contribute to ozone which may slightly increase as a result of more ethanol use, which can be managed by tools which we have available under the Clean Air Act," Hellmer said . Jennifer Wood of the U . S . Environmental Protection Agency echoed those same remarks in an e-mail . "While EPA has not fully reviewed the study, the agency's experience and analysis in developing renewable-fuel standards contradicts the underlying assumptions of the study," she wrote . "The increased use of renewable fuels, like E85, will significantly reduce greenhouse gas, benzene and carbon monoxide emissions while strengthening our nation's energy security and supporting American farming communities . We just have to find enough crop to sustain our needs somewhere in the world . This is a terrific opportunity for some third-world nation to really become rich and affluent on the coattails of our vehicular needs, continuing, "The pollutants that contribute to ozone, which may slightly increase as a result of additional ethanol use, can be managed by the suite of effective tools available under the Clean Air Act . " With that diatribe, the onus of keeping particulate emissions from the atmosphere fall again on Detroit to install and enervate new technology to clean up what they (the politicians) cannot do, but are quite capable of mandating as law . California Air Resources Board spokeswoman Gennet Paauwe said staff researchers are designing their own study to examine potential effects of ethanol on air pollution and health . Results are expected by 2050, she says . Jacobson said there are already an estimated 5,000 premature U . S . deaths annually tied to ozone exposure, in spite of Clean Air Act regulations . He said that he had assumed large reductions in emissions by 2020 because of more stringent air regulations, but that even then, there were significant health risks . Brooke Coleman, director of the Renewable Energy Action Project in San Francisco, said Jacobson was a respected air quality expert but criticized him for saying there would be increased deaths from E85 and smog . "He is ignoring the fact that E85 greatly reduces emissions that are much more harmful to humans than smog, such as toxics and soot (particulates)", Coleman said in an e-mail . Jacobson replied that "there is no evidence available to indicate that particulate matter will decrease with the use of E85… . The effect of E85 on increasing mortality is firmly grounded in science based on information available today, and not misleading . What is misleading is the claims made to date that ethanol will improve air quality and health . " Thirty states, so far, have public E85 fueling stations . Most are in the Midwest . California has one, in San Diego . :mad: :mad: holy nice work . just to commend you on writing a long post that i didn't read:thumbs:	mabix (10146)
542163	2007-04-19 13:10:00	the reason they still promote bio-ethanol is that it doesn't render the current automotive industry obsolete. electricity is the future, provided we have clean power sources. charge-at-home lectric vehicles are slowly becoming available, and work out equivalent to 20cents a litre (to memory). with hybrid cars and ever improving battery technologies (just look at cellphones over the last decade) it won't take long. as for those "fuel cell" things, they are basically electric cars with an extra, uneccessary and expensive stage added. but as i said, if internal combustion engines go out in favour of electric, there will be alot of mechanics to be re-trained, although there is no reason for gearboxes etc to be any different (yes, million dollar idea right there, and people are already doing it, converting cars to electric just like your uncle dropping a v8 into a mini for the sake of it and the police converting to LPG for better cost and range)	motorbyclist (188)
542164	2007-04-19 18:06:00	the reason they still promote bio-ethanol is that it doesn't render the current automotive industry obsolete . electricity is the future, provided we have clean power sources . charge-at-home lectric vehicles are slowly becoming available, and work out equivalent to 20cents a litre (to memory) . with hybrid cars and ever improving battery technologies (just look at cellphones over the last decade) it won't take long . as for those "fuel cell" things, they are basically electric cars with an extra, uneccessary and expensive stage added . but as i said, if internal combustion engines go out in favour of electric, there will be alot of mechanics to be re-trained, although there is no reason for gearboxes etc to be any different (yes, million dollar idea right there, and people are already doing it, converting cars to electric just like your uncle dropping a v8 into a mini for the sake of it and the police converting to LPG for better cost and range) One thing people are wont to forget: Where do they think the electricity comes from for these "non-polluting" autos? There are not plants manufacturing electricity by rubbing cricket legs together . Electricity comes from POWER GENERATORS . . . . USUALLY RUNNING ON COAL OR FUEL OIL . Since there is a general, universal moratorium on nuclear generating plants, then the law of conservation of energy goes into crass effect here . Every time an energy form is mutated into another there are losses . Let's see . . . . burning dinosaur distillate to create steam to spinning a turbine to electrical generation to wiring and distribution to an outpost and various transformers along the way to charging a battery (very wasteful!) to turning motors to turning wheels . It all boils down to a very wasteful way to power a vehicle .	SurferJoe46 (51)
542165	2007-04-19 18:23:00	One thing people are wont to forget: Where do they think the electricity comes from for these "non-polluting" autos? There are not plants manufacturing electricity by rubbing cricket legs together . Electricity comes from POWER GENERATORS . . . . USUALLY RUNNING ON COAL OR FUEL OIL . Since there is a general, universal moratorium on nuclear generating plants, then the law of conservation of energy goes into crass effect here . Every time an energy form is mutated into another there are losses . Let's see . . . . burning dinosaur distillate to create steam to spinning a turbine to electrical generation to wiring and distribution to an outpost and various transformers along the way to charging a battery (very wasteful!) to turning motors to turning wheels . It all boils down to a very wasteful way to power a vehicle . Suggesting what I have said many times,the world is mad,and there is nowt new in that! .	Cicero (40)
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