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Thread ID: 81380	2007-07-25 22:31:00	Wheel Alignment Question	allblack (6574)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
572754	2007-07-25 22:31:00	Hi all. Comments please. Had new tyres and wheel alignment done on my '96 Prado yesterday at Beaurepairs at Kaiwhara (sp?) Dropped car off and went for a wander for an hour. Came back and wheels being put back on. Car driven out and told "all done". What about alignment?? Guy said all done. Their new machine allows them to do the wheel alignment at the beginning, not end. Had run out of ciggies an hour earlier, so didn't discuss with him. Jumped in wagon and headed to buy a pack! But hang on? If an alignment is done PRIOR to the wheels being removed, won't it be out of alignment when the wheels are put back on with the new rubber?? Any knowledgeable people here care to comment? If Beaurepairs are correct, can someone please explain why the alignment won't be buggered by removing wheels post-alignment? Cheers all.	allblack (6574)
572755	2007-07-25 22:54:00	good question....surfer joe ! !! ;) not the best thing to do the alignment on the old tires before fitting the new ones, especially with 4x4's. you can get the general alignment right but as new tires sit on the road differently.........	tweak'e (69)
572756	2007-07-25 23:03:00	Hi all . Comments please . Had new tyres and wheel alignment done on my '96 Prado yesterday at Beaurepairs at Kaiwhara (sp?) Dropped car off and went for a wander for an hour . Came back and wheels being put back on . Car driven out and told "all done" . What about alignment?? Guy said all done . Their new machine allows them to do the wheel alignment at the beginning, not end . Had run out of ciggies an hour earlier, so didn't discuss with him . Jumped in wagon and headed to buy a pack! But hang on? If an alignment is done PRIOR to the wheels being removed, won't it be out of alignment when the wheels are put back on with the new rubber?? Any knowledgeable people here care to comment? If Beaurepairs are correct, can someone please explain why the alignment won't be buggered by removing wheels post-alignment? Cheers all . You may be confusing wheel alignment with wheel balancing . Wheel alignment can be done with the wheels on . The angles (caster, camber, toe, etc) are adjusted so the wheels point in the right place . This is fairly easy if you have the right tools . A wheel balance is to balance the tyre on the rim . You have to take the wheel off to do this .	vinref (6194)
572757	2007-07-25 23:05:00	From my very basic knowledge I believe it isn't really wheel alignment so much as steering alignment (toe-in toe-out and all that). So the alignment is basically unaffected by the actual tyre on the wheel. Balancing of the tyre on the wheel should always be done. Alignment is required less often or after you have stuffed it by hitting something.	AvonBill (11358)
572758	2007-07-25 23:56:00	Unless he did the wheel alignment with his eyecrometer they should have supplied you with a print out of what was done with a whole lot of technical mumbo jumbo.	sam m (517)
572759	2007-07-26 00:04:00	So, did you test the alignment? I've heard all sorts of stories about Beaurepaires, and they charge a lot too for such crap service.	pctek (84)
572760	2007-07-26 01:08:00	OK . . here I am Wheel alignment is possible in a very short time if they have the newer racks with the computer system . Some shops do a "peanut butter" alignment where they drive the vehicle onto the rack and leave it there for a while and just drive it off again . The customer will never know for sure if they did anything or not . It doesn't matter if the tires are bald, bent or even missing . . well, maybe not missing . . . . for an alignment to be done on the newest systems . The machine compensates for any irregularity it discovers and will make adjustments accordingly . The old days of comparing the alignment with using the tire carcass for the measurements are all gone now . Your vehicle is front and rear alignable . . so it should be done with what we call a "thrust-angle" or "drive-angle" alignment . Balancing is an absolute must for any tire . . . and it doesn't matter if the alignment is right or not . A tire out of balance will set up a vibration usually at about 49-52 mph for a 15", 44-48mph for a 14 incher, and around 39-42 for a 13 inch tire . Those are just guidelines, but indicative anyway . Alignment includes KPA or kingpin angle, and is a throwback to days when vehicles actually had kingpins . It is the straight line drawn thru the ball joints (if there is an upper and a lower ball joint) and the angle that line generates when the wheels are turned from full left to full right . The caster if figured by the extension of the KPA where it intersects the driving surface (road) and that point is measured from there to the center of the tire tread where it rests on the road . It should be slightly negative to cause the wheels to return to center when you let go of the steering wheel and the vehicle is in motion . On a 14 inch tire, we usually see about a 1 . 5 inch to a 2 . 0 inch value . The camber is the angle that is generated by the inclination of the wheel from a flat flanged area to the flat ground and the angle is expressed in degrees . Most vehicles require approx . the following numbers as a general example: Caster = . 5º to 1 . 75º, but we usually spot this in inches rather than degrees . Camber = about - . 5º- to +1 . 0º for a rear wheel driven vehicle, add about + . 5º for front wheel drive . Toe is usually decided upon by the placement of the cross shaft or the tie rod . It is always in inches or hexa-deca-mega-kilo-meters if you are metricated . If it is BEFORE the kingpin or ball joints (also the strut mount in those type systems) then you set it at about . 5º out, and if the tie rod is BEHIND the kingpin etc, then you set it at . 5º in . The thrust of the drive against the steering is what determines the amount of toe, either negative of positive . This of course requires good physical conditions on the hardware of the tie rod ends, pitman arm and idler arms, if it is so designed . Unbelievably, alignment can be done with very bad ball joints as they "rest" in a static position and the adjustments can be made while they are at rest . If you have McPherson struts, then you must have good mast bearings and a decent physical condition of the strut . . . but not in matters of shock absorption . That is a whole different bird . Normally the toe is set about 1/8th inch to 3/16th inches toe in . Some facilities add a little toe out toward the crown of the road (the center of the road) to help keep the car climbing up to the center of the road and away from the curb or gutter side . Unless you have the alignment seriously out of whack, you'll not notice any problems with pull or thumping of the tires . The tires will WEAR out very prematurely though for an alignment issue . Tires that sing or squeal just driving straight ahead likely have the toe out of adjustment by a LOT! . Toe is the worst offender of tire wear, followed by caster . Camber is usually not too much of a problem and if it was out far enough to cause untoward tire wear, you'd be more than able to see it with the naked eye . Any thumping at a certain speed is almost always a balance problem, not alignment . A tire that is out of round or defective is another story all together . It will wobble at slow speeds or cause a hop or shimmy to the car like on a smooth surface . Many times a tire is delaminating itself because it has been rotated into the wrong rotational condition . Radials are more than likely to do this if they are on the verge of falling apart and have been rotated as the tire shops want you to . Tire rotation is a rip-off . If you have a tire wear problem it is almost always a mechanical cause and then you should repair the reason for the problem and leave the tire where it is . A bad wear pattern will not drive out of a tire and moving it without making the repair will just ruin the next tire put in that position . If you rotate all the time, you just need to replace four tires all at the same time . That's good for the tire merchants . . bad for you . With the possible damage to a tire from rotating it and the rapid wear that happens when you put a tire into a different work description, you;ll also wear them out faster . . . it's not worth the expense of the rotation that way .	SurferJoe46 (51)
572761	2007-07-26 01:50:00	You may be confusing wheel alignment with wheel balancing. Wheel alignment can be done with the wheels on. The angles (caster, camber, toe, etc) are adjusted so the wheels point in the right place. This is fairly easy if you have the right tools. A wheel balance is to balance the tyre on the rim. You have to take the wheel off to do this. Nope......I watched them balance the wheels. Was curious when I saw a six year-old boy working on my car! :cool:	allblack (6574)
572762	2007-07-26 01:54:00	They have to have a six-year old to drive the computer. Adults can't understand the software.	Graham L (2)
572763	2007-07-26 01:55:00	Unless he did the wheel alignment with his eyecrometer they should have supplied you with a print out of what was done with a whole lot of technical mumbo jumbo. This is true.....something else I forgot in my haste to: Get some nicotine into my lungs, and Hit the road to go see my lady.	allblack (6574)
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