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Thread ID: 81607	2007-08-01 21:19:00	BioFuel Warnings	pctek (84)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
575113	2007-08-01 21:19:00	In todays Herald: Car firms warn of biofuel fire risk By Angela Gregory Car makers are warning that an environmentally friendly "biofuel" launched by Prime Minister Helen Clark yesterday could seriously damage up to a million Japanese imported vehicles. It could even cause some cars to catch fire, they say. The Force 10 ethanol blend put on sale by Gull Petroleum yesterday is the first product to appear under a Government climate change policy that will require oil companies to ensure 3.4 per cent of their sales are biofuels by the year 2012. It was greeted by an immediate warning from the Motor Industry Association that up to a million used cars imported from Japan should not use it. And the Automobile Association said it could cause damage that might invalidate a car's warranty. Toyota said any of its used imports registered before 2005 were not suited to the fuel. Its New Zealand after-sales general manager, Paul Carroll, said deteriorating fuel lines could cause leaks into car engines, possibly causing fires. Mitsubishi Motors echoed the concern that the fuel could be corrosive in used imports. A Nissan spokesman said New Zealand-new vehicles bought after January 2004 would be able to use the fuel, but the company would not accept responsibility for used Japanese imports. Gull, New Zealand's smallest oil company, put the blend of 98-octane petrol with 10 per cent ethanol on sale yesterday at outlets in Albany, Kingsland and Wiri. The blend is made from whey, a natural byproduct of the dairy industry supplied by Fonterra. It costs $1.615 a litre, a few cents cheaper than other high octane petrol but more expensive than 91 octane, which Gull was selling for $1.535 a litre. Motor Industry Association chief executive Perry Kerr told the Herald that any used Japanese imports, apart from Hondas, were not considered by their makers to be suitable for ethanol blends above 3 per cent of fuel mix. * Gull Force 10 is a blend of petrol with 10 per cent bioethanol, a whey-derived product supplied by Fonterra. * Gull says it will give motorists improved power and performance and a cleaner fuel system as well as producing lower carbon dioxide emissions. Biofuels must make up 3.4 per cent of fuel companies' sales by 2012 under the Government's quota policy	pctek (84)
575114	2007-08-01 21:27:00	All sounds rather cockupish to me!	Cicero (40)
575115	2007-08-01 22:09:00	calling sufer joe ! ! ! they have been running it in the states for a while i think. i wonder hw they are getting along. i'm more used to methonal when used in race cars. you have special fuel lines for those. bothstriaght metnanol and ethanol can eat fuel lines and other rubber parts.	tweak'e (69)
575116	2007-08-01 22:34:00	We went thru this nonsense in the US a few years ago . . . . and I am amazed that Japanese version of cars are built to two different tech levels in the world yet . The biggest problem in the fuel systems (fuel injected engines) was the rubber and some plastic parts that lost their elasticity and cracked or got so soft that they could not hold the pressures of the fuel system . Other problems with water absorption showed up in the cooler months where the individual fuel tanks would "inhale" atmospheric air when the tanks cooled off after a long run and brought atmospheric moisture into them . The moist air caused condensation to be generated in the tanks and it then flowed to the bottom of the tank . The resulting acids and sludge formed from the water/alcohol admixture caused all sorts of havoc in the tanks, filters and the pumps themselves . Fuel starvation in the pump became a real problem as the primary strainers choked up with slurry and what appeared to be a dull white ash from the galvanized fuel tank linings and then filled the small screen and the pump went dry while running . OK . . fast forward to today: We don't see the problems like we did . The manufacturers all got on the ball and changed the coatings of the tanks, designed high pressure plastic fuel lines and replaced the rubber and not-so-tolerant plastics with better alloys . The problem now is an engine with a carburetor . The alcohol separates from the fuel when the engine has been run and then shut off . The alcohol seems to separate by falling out of solution from the heat of the crossover under the carb to make it vaporize better in colder days . It takes over the lower portion of the fuel bowl and that makes restarts hard and the engine will stumble badly until a better mixture of gasoline/alcohol is reestablished in the float area . Fuel economy is in the toilet too . Since alcohol does not have the BTUs of gasoline, it requires more of it to generate an equivalent amount of power . Alcohol does not accelerate well in the venturi either . By molecular strength alone, it behaves much differently from gasoline and does not want to entrain into the airflow in the same way . This causes wet and dry spots in the plenum and intake runners, with the gasoline now quenched to much cooler temperatures from the alcohol evaporation and the gas condenses and is pushed along the walls of the runners in small waves . This wave flow causes further leaning out of the mixture as the gas is not entrained with the air flow, but rather stuck to the manifold walls . . . that is until the gas finally reaches the intake valve where it then slugs the combustion chamber and makes it over-rich and highly hydrocarbonous-emmissive with unburned fuel exiting the engine and fouling the catalytic converter, likely rendering it useless in short time . Gasoline wash-down of the cylinder walls, rings, valve seats, guides and fouled spark plugs are a direct result of this condition . Rapid engine wear and unnecessary changes of plugs are needed . When I raced a combo gas/alcohol dragster many years ago, we usually ran somewhat larger than stock jets in the carb for the Street/Gas class . When we switched to alky in the same car, same engine, now in D- or E-Fuel class, we just basically took the jets out of the carb and just let the alcohol run without any jets at all . We went faster, but we used a LOT more fuel . We needed that extra flow and size to accommodate the requirements to get a good air:fuel ratio, especially at near to sea-level at Long Beach Lion's Drag Strip . Gasoline runs pretty good at 16:1 or on the lean side at 17 . 5:1 . Alcohol on the other hand like to run around 5:1 or 6:1 . See the difference? To get the mandated 300 miles per tankful of fuel that the US manufacturers are "required" to achieve in their production line vehicles, with gasoline we see about 16 to 20 gallon tanks . The appropriate amount of pure alcohol in a tank to go the same distance would be 30 gallons or more . I don't care if alky is CLOSE to the cost of gasoline . . if we burn twice as much of it as gasoline to perform the same work it will cost more than twice the price of gasoline . Any mixture of gas/alcohol in whatever ratios will diminish the economy of the engine and up the required size of the fuel tanks and the weight of the overall vehicle . Since weight, or lower weight really, factors heavily in the economy equation, I don't see it working to the advantage of anyone except the corn growers . We should not be burning our foodstuffs in our vehicles .	SurferJoe46 (51)
575117	2007-08-01 22:50:00	Please note,at this point we are using whey. Of all the curds and whey.	Cicero (40)
575118	2007-08-01 22:54:00	Please note,at this point we are using whey. Of all the curds and whey. Surely if we started using the curds, we would be no better then saddam	plod (107)
575119	2007-08-01 22:55:00	I have used 10% Ethanol petrol blend and while it will does not seem to harm my new Mitsi car, it is not worth it, monitoring fuel consumption has shown on average about 10% poorer consumption than that returned with the standard petrol, for which the engine is tuned. Simply put, the price differential needs to be better than 10%, before I would use it as a matter of course. If you are worried about fuel costs buy a turbo diesel car - VW Golf TDi returns round 5 Litres / 100km. The new Honda Accord Euro with a 2Lt Turbo Diesel, available in Europe for some time, and coming to Australia next year returns a similar consumption. Similar for Peugeots and Citreons.	KenESmith (6287)
575120	2007-08-01 22:56:00	From what I read it seems only the north Island will get it for now. Also only from Gull. As I haven't seen a Gull station down south yet I won't be bothered using it. Even if the other fuel companies started selling it I would still not use it. :2cents:	intel hunter (6666)
575121	2007-08-01 23:00:00	The fact that it is 98 octane should rule out a lot of cars.	plod (107)
575122	2007-08-01 23:06:00	Surely if we started using the curds, we would be no better then Saddam Indeed,we would have to watch out for dubya wanting to attack NZ,in which case we get the Aussies to surround them and we would take them from the front. The reason for this stuff becomes less and less apparent!.	Cicero (40)
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