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Thread ID: 83158	2007-09-21 11:15:00	waipu caves	tweak'e (69)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
593746	2007-09-25 00:29:00	Here's a little more detail... Don't assume that a qualified cave guide is a caving expert - I know how little they need to know in order to pass their basic caving course to get a piece of paper. This in no way reflects their experience. CAVE RESCUE - Dramatic rescue could have ended in death 22.09.2007 By Saskia Konynenburg and Imran Ali The dramatic rescue of six teenagers trapped in Waipu Caves could easily have ended in a death, said Northland Search and Rescue boss Senior Sergeant Cliff Metcalfe. An investigation has been launched into Thursday's drama, which unfolded when a rapidly rising underground stream blocked the group's exit. At least 60 Search and Rescue personnel, firefighters, police, specialist cave rescuers and medics rushed to the scene near Waipu through a flooded stream and along a muddy track impassable to fire trucks. Portable pumps were used to pump 2000 litres of water a minute from the blocked cave mouth, but were no match for the rising floodwaters. Mr Metcalfe said one girl was in a "very serious" condition and all were suffering from hypothermia. "As soon as we got a communication line through we realised the situation was very serious and called for more ambulances. The kids had been in the caves since 8.30am and were very cold and wet. They'd had little food or drink," he said. Cave rescuers realised the only way for the teens to escape was to dive underwater in pitch darkness and follow a guide rope for three metres. "The girl in a serious condition was unresponsive so she remained in the cave as long as possible ... for the safety of everyone I ordered the immediate evacuation of the cave as the water level was still rising and threatened to fill the whole cave. If we didn't get the girl out then we could've lost her." Mr Metcalfe was surprised the North Shore teens' parents were allowing their children to continue the programme. "I don't think they realise what a serious situation it was. It was terrifying for the children who were all very shocked ... the potential for serious casualties was huge," he said. Experienced Whangarei caver Robyn Scott also feared for the teens' safety when she was called in to help with the rescue. The Northland Search and Rescue cave adviser would not comment on whether the students should have been taken into the cave, given the weather conditions, but described as "very dangerous" the situation that confronted her when she arrived at the cave. She said the rain, and the fact that the teenagers had been in the cave for 10 to 12 hours, had her worried. Those concerns increased when rain started again shortly after Ms Scott arrived. "They had wetsuits but there's a limit to how long the suits can keep people warm ... I was worried about the height of the water and the first thing that came to my mind was to get them out as soon as possible." Ms Scott said it was the second such rescue in the cave system. The first was in the 1970s in another cave in Waipu. She said the cave from which the teenagers were rescued was used by many different groups, including challenging trips for inexperienced people. CAVE RESCUE - Adventure boss backs decision to enter caves 22.09.2007 By Imran Ali An outdoor adventure company has defended its decision to guide a group of students into the Waipu Caves during bad weather. A dramatic search and rescue operation was launched on Thursday afternoon after six teenagers from Auckland were trapped in the flooded cave. They had to dive underwater in darkness and swim about three metres before being plucked to safety by rescuers. Waipu-based Peak Adventures director Ian Fox said he felt comfortable with his staff taking the students into the caves, as heavy rain forecast for the Far North was not predicted for Whangarei. "You can't be 100 percent reliant on weather reports and these are statistics from the MetService. Otherwise, people won't do anything," he said. Mr Fox described the weather change as "unique" because the water level in the caves increased more rapidly than expected. He said during trips weather was constantly monitored and once in the caves water levels were closely watched. The North Shore students were on the last of a series of chambers in the cave which made it difficult for them to exit with the rising water. "We had a downpour on the hill where the cave is and it just flowed inside through lots of entry points," he said. A debriefing with Peak Adventures and the students was held yesterday . Mr Fox said it was the first such incident since the business started five years ago.	user (1404)
593747	2007-09-25 02:14:00	perhaps it's time to order some more cotton wool. I have a go at the wife all the time for being over protected of the children. kids need to bleed a bit to toughen them up. 20 years ago those teenagers in the cave would have thought that was the best experience they have had in there lives Apparently these kids were on this 'course' becuase they were from what were deemed (by someone) as being from 'at risk' home environments (whatever that means). Having said that, I imagine most of these kids WILL consider this "the best experience they have had in there lives" from an adventure point of view. It's the hand-wringing liberals that are deeming it a disaster, or near-disaster. They all got out safely - no harm, no foul. Just learn from the episode and move on - don't stop kids from experiencing this sort of thing just because of something that MIGHT have happened....	johcar (6283)
593748	2007-09-25 08:34:00	thanks user, thats a lot more info than what i saw on tv. as heavy rain forecast for the Far North was not predicted for Whangarei. yeah right ! ! i've been working in the aera and our work is very weather dependant.	tweak'e (69)
593749	2007-09-30 02:33:00	I wonder if this business of schools getting outside people to run camps is a consequence of tragedies like the special needs one. With this Waipu Caves thing, you have Northcote College and Project K and Peak Adventures all between parents and their kids. That’s a lot of middlemen to pass the buck around between. I hope what comes out of this is that schools realise that even when they get outside people to run camps, they still have a moral obligation to assess the risks themselves. And they need to investigate the competence of the people they’re passing the buck to. You can’t just say, well somebody else is in charge, it’s not our responsibility.	cliffhanger (12848)
593750	2007-09-30 06:01:00	I hope what comes out of this is that schools realise that even when they get outside people to run camps, they still have a moral obligation to assess the risks themselves. And they need to investigate the competence of the people they’re passing the buck to. You can’t just say, well somebody else is in charge, it’s not our responsibility. You really don't know anything about EOTC do you? You are clearly just spouting off out of total ignorance. For every proposed excursion for EOTC there is a comprehensive risk analysis carried out, and the competencies and certification of external instructors are checked for relevance and currency. Regardless of what the school staff think, in every case the final say about the proposed excursion lies with the Board of Trustees who must first review then sign off the Risk Assessment documentation before the trip can proceed. It is not possible for schools to have all of the skills required "in house" so they must employ external skills for any special activities, be that on the water, under the sea, snow & ice, mountain territory, bush excursions, and yes, EOTC excursions that may involve caving as this one did. It is easy to sit back and knock schools for trying to enrich students' educational experience and help their development into well rounded young adults, but please try to find out a little about the subject before you start spouting off. The school I am associated with takes student safety very seriously and we try to cover all eventualities in our risk assessment procedures. I am sure that any school in NZ would do no less. Cheers Billy 8-{) Since you probably don't know what EOTC is either, I'll spell it out: Education Outside The Classroom	Billy T (70)
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