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Thread ID: 83145	2007-09-20 23:04:00	Climate change caused by man ?	wmoore (6009)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
593600	2007-10-03 10:10:00	I am quite familiar with that but it might pay you to read the two links I supplied as you might learn something you don't know. those articles seemed to contradict themselves a bit....	motorbyclist (188)
593601	2007-10-03 11:03:00	those articles seemed to contradict themselves a bit.... I will agree that the figures used in the two articles differ slightly but I wouldn't say they contradicted each other.	mikebartnz (21)
593602	2007-10-03 14:05:00	Everyone knows the climate change is from farts:nerd:	rob_on_guitar (4196)
593603	2007-10-03 15:28:00	oh yes we can, especially as that carbon dioxide only comes out of solution as the oceans warm up. I think that's slightly the wrong tilt and incongruously wrong...but not being an organic chemist, I'll rely on someone else to correct you and me. ........but I think that CO2, once it's in solution with water (H2O) becomes Carbonic Acid (H2CO3) and it has a different impact on things than you suspect. The instability of Carbonic Acid is evidenced by the following from Wikipedia: "...Carbonic Acid is diprotic, that is it has two hydrogens which disassociate and thus two dissociation constants: H2CO3 ⇌ HCO3− + H+ Ka1 = 2.5×10−4 mol/L; pKa1 = 3.60 at 25 °C. HCO3− ⇌ CO32− + H+ Ka2 = 5.61×10−11 mol/L; pKa2 = 10.25 at 25 °C. Care must be taken when quoting and using the first dissociation constant of carbonic acid. The value quoted above is correct for the H2CO3 molecule, and shows that it is a stronger acid than acetic acid or formic acid: this might be expected from the influence of the electronegative oxygen substituent. However, carbonic acid only ever exists in solution in equilibrium with carbon dioxide, and so the concentration of H2CO3 is much lower than the concentration of CO2, reducing the measured acidity. The equation may be rewritten as follows (c.f. sulfurous acid): CO2 + H2O ⇌ HCO3− + H+ Ka = 4.30×10−7 mol/L; pKa = 6.36. This figure is quoted as the dissociation constant of carbonic acid, although this is ambiguous: it might better be referred to as the acidity constant of carbon dioxide, as it is particularly useful for calculating the pH of CO2 solutions." Now..check this point out well..... "....Although the natural absorption of CO2 by the world's oceans helps mitigate the climatic effects of anthropogenic emissions of CO2, it is believed that the resulting decrease in pH will have negative consequences, primarily for oceanic calcifying organisms. These use the calcite or aragonite polymorphs of calcium carbonate to construct cell coverings or skeletons. Calcifiers span the food chain from autotrophs to heterotrophs and include organisms such as coccolithophores, corals, foraminifera, echinoderms, crustaceans and molluscs. Under normal conditions, calcite and aragonite are stable in surface waters since the carbonate ion is at supersaturating concentrations. However, as ocean pH falls, so does the concentration of this ion, and when carbonate becomes under-saturated, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution. Research has already found that corals[6], coccolithophore algae[7], foraminifera[8], shellfish[9] and pteropods[1] experience reduced calcification or enhanced dissolution when exposed to elevated CO2. The Royal Society of London published a comprehensive overview of ocean acidification, and its potential consequences, in June 2005[5]. While the full ecological consequences of these changes in calcification are still uncertain, it appears likely that calcifying species will be adversely affected. There is also some evidence that the effect of acidification on coccolithophores (among the most abundant phytoplankton in the ocean) in particular may eventually exacerbate climate change, by decreasing the earth's albedo via their effects on oceanic cloud cover[10]. Aside from calcification (and specifically calcifiers), organisms may suffer other adverse effects, either directly as reproductive or physiological effects (e.g. CO2-induced acidification of body fluids, known as hypercapnia), or indirectly through negative impacts on food resources. However, as with calcification, as yet there is not a full understanding of these processes in marine organisms or ecosystems."	SurferJoe46 (51)
593604	2007-10-03 18:28:00	I am quite familiar with that but it might pay you to read the two links I supplied as you might learn something you don't know . Oh I did read them Mike and let me quote from the Guardian one: 'Earth's magnetic field has disappeared many times before - as a prelude to our magnetic poles flipping over, when north becomes south and vice versa,' said Dr Alan Thomson of the British Geological Survey in Edinburgh . 'Reversals happen every 250,000 years or so, and as there has not been one for almost a million years, we are due one soon . ' Now, if this phenomenon happens every 250,000 years but hasn’t happened for 1,000,000 years is this not a straight contradiction? :groan: Actually, this event was set down by some “eminent scientists” to occur at midnight on December 31st 1999 . We’re still waiting . :groan: Well, I’d dearly like to read the documentation that records the event the last time it happened . :D Anyway, my main concern now is arrange the relocation of all the Polar Bears (They only live at the North Pole) and obtain Resource Consent to relocate Mr . Claus’s toy factory . :illogical God knows how long the latter will take . :lol:	B.M. (505)
593605	2007-10-03 21:35:00	'Earth's magnetic field has disappeared many times before - as a prelude to our magnetic poles flipping over, when north becomes south and vice versa,' said Dr Alan Thomson of the British Geological Survey in Edinburgh . 'Reversals happen every 250,000 years or so, and as there has not been one for almost a million years, we are due one soon . ' Now, if this phenomenon happens every 250,000 years but hasn’t happened for 1,000,000 years is this not a straight contradiction? :groan: Well, I’d dearly like to read the documentation that records the event the last time it happened . :D Anyway, my main concern now is arrange the relocation of all the Polar Bears (They only live at the North Pole) and obtain Resource Consent to relocate Mr . Claus’s toy factory . :illogical God knows how long the latter will take . :lol: The see-saw of the Earths magnetic field is easily read in the orientation of iron crystals in rocks, which is how this is known . The 250,000 years is an average - with variations over the 4 . 5 billion years age of the Earth .	Winston001 (3612)
593606	2007-10-03 21:44:00	" . . . Carbonic Acid is diprotic, that is it has two hydrogens which disassociate and thus two dissociation constants: . . . . . . etc Now . . check this point out well . . . . . [COLOR="DarkRed"]" . . . . Although the natural absorption of CO2 by the world's oceans helps mitigate the climatic effects of anthropogenic emissions of CO2, it is believed that the resulting decrease in pH will have negative consequences, primarily for oceanic calcifying organisms . . . . . Under normal conditions, calcite and aragonite are stable in surface waters since the carbonate ion is at supersaturating concentrations . However, as ocean pH falls, so does the concentration of this ion, and when carbonate becomes under-saturated, structures made of calcium carbonate are vulnerable to dissolution . . . . Thankyou Joe . :thumbs: Just the points I was making earlier . Ocean acidification from inorganic carbon is very serious . I'm not sure that carbon absorption by the ocean is significantly affected by the ocean warming but there is another consequence - the release of methane hydrates . This is locked up organic carbon lying in layers on and under the ocean floors and is composed of millions of years of dead plankton, fish, seaweed etc . This can be freed up if the water warms .	Winston001 (3612)
593607	2007-10-03 23:28:00	Oh I did read them Mike and let me quote from the Guardian one: 'Earth's magnetic field has disappeared many times before - as a prelude to our magnetic poles flipping over, when north becomes south and vice versa,' said Dr Alan Thomson of the British Geological Survey in Edinburgh . 'Reversals happen every 250,000 years or so, and as there has not been one for almost a million years, we are due one soon . ' I think that's how NZ got all upside down too . . Once upon a time, Upsidedown Land was Rightsideup Land, and was actually where it was originally created . . . the Northern Hemisphere . Proof: The common language and walking upright . . well, some are upright anyway . And some actually speak a variation on The King's English with sloppy syntax, sins and taxes . We love them anyway .	SurferJoe46 (51)
593608	2007-10-03 23:33:00	Thankyou Joe . :thumbs: Just the points I was making earlier . Ocean acidification from inorganic carbon is very serious . I'm not sure that carbon absorption by the ocean is significantly affected by the ocean warming but there is another consequence - the release of methane hydrates . This is locked up organic carbon lying in layers on and under the ocean floors and is composed of millions of years of dead plankton, fish, seaweed etc . This can be freed up if the water warms . I claim dumbness here . . . what is inorganic carbon? Maybe diamonds? I thought ALL carbon was organic and therefor qualified anything with it, as a constituent, organic . Darned it . . . a new curve to learn! :(	SurferJoe46 (51)
593609	2007-10-03 23:35:00	The see-saw of the Earths magnetic field is easily read in the orientation of iron crystals in rocks, which is how this is known. The 250,000 years is an average - with variations over the 4.5 billion years age of the Earth. I see, well would it be correct to say that given the margin of error is plus or minus a million or more years that this is not an exact science? :D :D :D	B.M. (505)
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