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Thread ID: 83145 2007-09-20 23:04:00 Climate change caused by man ? wmoore (6009) PC World Chat
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593580 2007-09-30 21:30:00 I'd just like to pause and say how much I appreciate the level of debate here . We probably can't agree but it is good to get a variety of points of view .

Now - Legod - I read your links to those well written articles . What I drew from them is further confirmation of just how complex climate systems are . The data can be reinterpreted when new knowledge becomes available and some studies directly conflict with others .

Here is an answer to Schwartz - . realclimate . org/index . php/archives/2007/09/climate-insensitivity/" target="_blank">www . realclimate . org

The NorthWest Passage was named before it existed - it was a hoped-for navigable route from the Atlantic across the top of Canada to the Pacific . However many ships were lost and men died trying to find it . Although a passage of sorts exists, it isn't usable by merchant shipping - until now!

Sea levels have risen about 1 foot (300mm) over the past 300 years and the rate has increased in the 20th century .

Winston, when Amundson navigated the North West Passage in 1903 he did it in a little (69’) sailing ship, so the pack ice couldn’t have been too well packed back then . Talk about Wooden Ships and Iron Men . :D

When you say the Oceans have risen 300mm in 300 years how does that compare to the Bay of Fundy (Canada) where you can get 54’ or 16 . 5m between High and Low tide . :eek:

I think I’ll stick with the sea level being controlled by the Moon and Sun, not by my cars carbon emissions .

Even if Carbon Emissions were important, I fail to see how a tax would solve the problem . :D 		B.M. (505)
593581 2007-10-01 18:34:00 NASA Examines Arctic Sea Ice Changes Leading to Record Low In 2007
www.nasa.gov

The scientists observed less perennial ice cover in March 2007 than ever before, with the thick ice confined to the Arctic Ocean north of Canada. Consequently, the Arctic Ocean was dominated by thinner seasonal ice that melts faster. This ice is more easily compressed and responds more quickly to being pushed out of the Arctic by winds. Those conditions facilitated the ice loss, leading to this year's record low amount of total Arctic sea ice.

Nghiem said the rapid decline in winter perennial ice the past two years was caused by unusual winds. "Unusual atmospheric conditions set up wind patterns that compressed the sea ice, loaded it into the Transpolar Drift Stream and then sped its flow out of the Arctic," he said. When that sea ice reached lower latitudes, it rapidly melted in the warmer waters.

"The winds causing this trend in ice reduction were set up by an unusual pattern of atmospheric pressure that began at the beginning of this century," Nghiem said.

The Arctic Ocean's shift from perennial to seasonal ice is preconditioning the sea ice cover there for more efficient melting and further ice reductions each summer. The shift to seasonal ice decreases the reflectivity of Earth's surface and allows more solar energy to be absorbed in the ice-ocean system. 		Safari (3993)
593582 2007-10-01 19:41:00 Interesting post Safari .

It seems everybody wants to write a Report on Climate Change these days including NASA . :)

Of interest to me is they say: The scientists observed less perennial ice cover in March 2007 than ever before, with the thick ice confined to the Arctic Ocean north of Canada .

Question: When previously was the perennial ice cover ever measured? What data are they measuring and comparing against and how reliable is any previous data?

They then say: "The winds causing this trend in ice reduction were set up by an unusual pattern of atmospheric pressure that began at the beginning of this century” .

Fair enough, there is support out there for this theory but I notice there is no mention of Carbon . Nor is there any mention of how the situation may be remedied, if indeed it needs remedying .

At this stage it is only an observation that they believe worth recording .

Finally, Helen’s remedial theory of introducing a Fart Tax doesn’t even get a mention .

The theory has been referred to Disneyland . :D 		B.M. (505)
593583 2007-10-02 03:40:00 There's no fixing it, we are on an "express elevator to hell", sorry, had to use that phrase from Aliens 2, one of my favourites. zqwerty (97)
593584 2007-10-02 18:45:00 Never mind Zwerty, getting rid of all that beastly ice will be a lot harder than you think.

Just think of all that nice arable land it will reveal where we can plant trees and crops, even graze stock.

Nahhhh, forget about the stock, they fart and we won’t have any ice to melt.

My real concern is by melting the ice caps the temperature is only supposed to rise a couple of degrees. At the moment ten would be nice. :D 		B.M. (505)
593585 2007-10-03 01:52:00 so for all those who believe humans have no effect on global temperature, how do you explain away the logic behind humans causing warming?

ie:

we emit millions of tonnes of CO2 and other "greenhouse" gases into the atmosphere every year, these gases are known to heat the planet and do not just magically dissapear as fast as we emit them; therefore we do heat the earth to some extent (even if we are just compounding natural cycles)

i might also add that while a volcanoe does emit tonnes of ash and dust, which actually act to cool the earth, humans still produce more CO2 than vulcanism does 		motorbyclist (188)
593586 2007-10-03 02:26:00 Moon Landing, JFK, September 11 . . . . . . Global Warming . . . . :illogical

Wat sort or people buy into this crap? A big WHO CARES to all you "believers" out there . Have you not get anything better to worry about?

Does get me thinking though . . . Apparantly humans exhale 1kg of CO2/day which makes 365kg/year . At last glance we had 7500 prisoners incarcerated, by rough calcs this is 7500 x 365kg/year = 2,737,500kg/year .
Cost to keep a prisoner inside for a year = $40,000
7500x 40k = 300million per year . :2cents:

So . . . . . If we execute these prisoners we save $300million/year and reduce carbon emissions by nearly 3000 tons per year . . . .

Vote me for prime minister I will reduce global warming and score you a tax cut as well :D

Cheer

Veale 		Veale (536)
593587 2007-10-03 02:51:00 Veale for PM! :lol: If we are talking about conspiracy...actually, no. I'll wait to be asked. :lol: wratterus (105)
593588 2007-10-03 05:34:00 we emit millions of tonnes of CO2 and other "greenhouse" gases into the atmosphere every year, these gases are known to heat the planet and do not just magically dissapear as fast as we emit them;

You cannot reliably extrapolate what happens in a glass container in a laboratory to the real atmosphere, which has many feedbacks, clouds, and an ocean with dissolved carbon dioxide underneath it . 		legod (4626)
593589 2007-10-03 06:02:00 You cannot reliably extrapolate what happens in a glass container in a laboratory to the real atmosphere, which has many feedbacks, clouds, and an ocean with dissolved carbon dioxide underneath it.

oh yes we can, especially as that carbon dioxide only comes out of solution as the oceans warm up.

you can't deny that we emit huge amounts of greenhouse gas, and these gases DO cause warming, and not just because of a test in a jar.

this is exactly my point: those who deny that humans have no effect on global temperature simply deny any of the science behind it.

sure we may be (most definetly are) only compounding a natural cycle of warming and cooling, but if we can get atmospheric CO2 above 560ppm we'll prevent the next ice age - and if we proceed to burn all available oil in a "business as usual" approach we'll get there too - and then there's coal

we would have sucessfully thrown that cycle completely out (although possibly a good thing)


note there is still no justification for fart taxes. we should aim for cleaner power sources, like geothermal, wind, hydro solar, and electric cars etc. unfortunately labour knows very little of incentives, only taxes:mad: 		motorbyclist (188)
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