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Thread ID: 83145	2007-09-20 23:04:00	Climate change caused by man ?	wmoore (6009)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
593560	2007-09-29 23:23:00	We are continuously told that the sea will rise and cause flooding as the Icebergs melt. :( Well, for you believers, here’s a little “Standard Six” experiment. (Whoops showing my age) Chuck a couple of Ice Cubes into a glass and fill the glass to the rim with water. There, you have your own Iceberg. ;) Now, let me know how much water flows over the rim of the glass as the Iceberg melts. That’s how much the sea will rise thanks to melting Icebergs. :D	B.M. (505)
593561	2007-09-30 00:40:00	I find it disturbing how little people seem to care for our planet, and dismiss anyone who does as a kook or tree-hugger. Also, how much evidence must be produced before anyone takes notice. The 'Chicken Little' analogies do little to help, perhaps the Ostrich who buried his head would be more appropriate. I also believe the media doesn't help matters and develops our resistance to distinguishing truth and filtering rubbish. In the end people just give up, or just don't care anymore. I think the most immediate and troubling problem is pollution. Pollution is the key. Yet, many deny that there is a problem. You could hypothesize and probably talk enough psycho-babble to convince yourself that there is no such thing, atmospheric mirages, hysteria. Travel to some industrial nations and experience it for yourself. Where the air quality is so bad that you feel sick, cough up crap every day, feel out of breath and have other health complications. The waterways are so polluted that nothing lives in them and you'll get extremely ill if you try to drink it. I suppose one could also argue that it's just a natural effect, and is historically cyclic, and we'll eventually adapt to it. I wish every Kiwi could travel to a large city outside of NZ (e.g. anywhere in S.E Asia), you might wake up and smell the roses ;) It's really hard to understand or believe unless you've experienced it first hand. I didn't give a crap about clean air or water until I did a stopover in Thailand, it woke me up big time! The locals just lived with it (although some did complain), it was too late to fix, too big of a problem, and maybe they didn't know any better. I found it shocking to see people wearing gas masks on their commutes (including the Police), driving around with permanent re-cycled air as it was 'cleaner'. I remember speaking to a friend who traveled through China, and it was a common occurrence to see rubbish collectors collecting the trash from the containers and then emptying it into the river! There is total denial and lethargy regarding attempting to fix these problems. As long economic growth is the priority over the environment, things only deteriorate. If nothing else comes out of these climate change talks, maybe (just maybe) someone might eventually wake up to the bigger picture or causes.	Andy1 (8755)
593562	2007-09-30 02:05:00	I find it disturbing how... I actually find it even more disturbing that anyone who dares to go against the wave of current opinion regarding anthropogenic global warming is deemed to be 'anti-green' or not caring about the environment. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm as concerned about the environment as one can and as one should be. I'm afraid the global warming agenda is extremely damaging for the environmental cause. You hear of politicians playing the 'race' card. Well the 'green' card is often played to instill guilt in those who don't conform.	legod (4626)
593563	2007-09-30 02:05:00	It’s unfortunate some can’t differentiate between pollution, global warming and all this carbon and carbon credits nonsense. :groan:	B.M. (505)
593564	2007-09-30 03:02:00	I actually find it even more disturbing that anyone who dares to go against the wave of current opinion regarding anthropogenic global warming is deemed to be 'anti-green' or not caring about the environment . Nothing could be further from the truth . I'm as concerned about the environment as one can and as one should be . I agree with you but unfortunately much of the argument at news media level is very shallow . Many people who dismiss anthroprogenic climate change simply do so because they have no intention of changing their lifestyle . I'd rather see a focus on environmental pollution because that has more meaning to the average person that the extremely complex subject of climate . Thanks for the links which I'll follow up .	Winston001 (3612)
593565	2007-09-30 03:13:00	We are continuously told that the sea will rise and cause flooding as the Icebergs melt . :( Chuck a couple of Ice Cubes into a glass and fill the glass to the rim with water . There, you have your own Iceberg . ;) Now, let me know how much water flows over the rim of the glass as the Iceberg melts . Absolutely correct - if the North Pole ice cap melted the sea levels would not rise - except for one thing - thermal expansion . All of the earths oceans would expand slightly over time and rise . The other effects are myriad . The Gulf Stream will move away from Europe . Tundra will thaw (happening already) releasing boundup CO2 into the environment . Wildlife will be dramatically displaced . Given that most of the Western World lives in the northern hemisphere they have plenty to worry about . Where sea levels will rise is from the melt of landbased ice systems - glaciers, parts of the Antartic . Geological evidence is that the sea has at one point in the past been 200 feet above present levels . However we aren't facing anything that extreme - more likely 2 -3 feet (1 metre) over the next 100 years .	Winston001 (3612)
593566	2007-09-30 03:36:00	I'm as concerned about the environment as one can and as one should be. I'm afraid the global warming agenda is extremely damaging for the environmental cause. You hear of politicians playing the 'race' card. Well the 'green' card is often played to instill guilt in those who don't conform. How can it be damaging to bring up a real problem? Even if you don't believe it has any correlation with warming. A bit of environmental guilt never did any harm :) How do you make people sit up and take notice. So far, next to nothing is being done about pollution. United States has ignored the issue thus far. But, for some reason Global Warming has caused them to at least discuss the possibility of the fact that emissions might be a real problem worldwide. It may be just talk, but at least it is being discussed instead of being ignored! Yes, carbon credits sounds like an extremely pointless idea. Perhaps it may lead to some more sensible ideas... We can only hope (trying to be optimistic here).	Andy1 (8755)
593567	2007-09-30 03:55:00	Absolutely correct - if the North Pole ice cap melted the sea levels would not rise - except for one thing - thermal expansion . All of the earths oceans would expand slightly over time and rise . The other effects are myriad . The Gulf Stream will move away from Europe . Tundra will thaw (happening already) releasing boundup CO2 into the environment . Wildlife will be dramatically displaced . Given that most of the Western World lives in the northern hemisphere they have plenty to worry about . Where sea levels will rise is from the melt of landbased ice systems - glaciers, parts of the Antartic . Geological evidence is that the sea has at one point in the past been 200 feet above present levels . However we aren't facing anything that extreme - more likely 2 -3 feet (1 metre) over the next 100 years . Oh dear, still I disagree . :lol: The thermal expansion you speak of Winston is actually thermal contraction, given that water expands when it freezes . Therefore the sea level will decrease, ever so slightly . As for the proposition that the sea level was once 200 feet higher I’d be interested to hear your explanation as to how it shrunk to present day levels . ;)	B.M. (505)
593568	2007-09-30 04:15:00	ARGNH	motorbyclist (188)
593569	2007-09-30 04:29:00	How can it be damaging to bring up a real problem? Even if you don't believe it has any correlation with warming . A bit of environmental guilt never did any harm :) How do you make people sit up and take notice . So far, next to nothing is being done about pollution . United States has ignored the issue thus far . But, for some reason Global Warming has caused them to at least discuss the possibility of the fact that emissions might be a real problem worldwide . It may be just talk, but at least it is being discussed instead of being ignored! Yes, carbon credits sounds like an extremely pointless idea . Perhaps it may lead to some more sensible ideas . . . We can only hope (trying to be optimistic here) . That's a slight misrepresentation there Andrew . . . . . The US (and I am not defending this place) has the strictest pollution controls in the world I believe . Our smokestack industries are all but closed or so clean that they are not even an issue any more . Yes . . we have pollution, but it has not gotten as bad as was prophesied by doom-sayers . I cannot live in SoCal any more as I have severe COPD and breathing problems, but I would have died a long time ago here if I lived in this same area in the late '60s instead of now . We have less hydrocarbonous smog . . the photochemical kind, but we DO have higher concentrations of nitrous oxides now . . . Sulfur dioxide is all but gone, and acid rain is almost non-existent . Our air is less hazed and dirty, and this is a model for the rest of the industrialized world to imitate . I don't believe the US has all the answers . . . prolly more questions and problems than answers is more like it . . but this place is big, spread all over the place and quite resilient . I am moving to a less hostile environment as my doctors have all told me to do for the past 15 years or so, and I have found such a place in the four corners area of Arizona . Being retired I can make that change . . I feel sorry for the little kids in the cities and suburbs who have to live in that sort of air and habitat . . and it isn't that I am so much better . . but I too am affected badly by bad air and nitrous oxide . But I think the ol' paintbrush you use is kinda unfair . . it smears a lot of people who really DO care . . as do I about the environment . I have my own reasons for believing what I do about global warming, carbon footprints and mans' interference with the natural cycles of the earth . I don't find that man can do either much against or for the environment . We are just too puny and not really relative to what's going on . Agreed, there is SOME human impact on the earth, but not at the levels you see around you in this era . It's like asking what is safe or unsafe to eat . What you eat can kill you if you don't get variety and diversity in your diet . Believing that ANY food in moderation is prolly OK, I don't make too much out of eating some junk food once in a while, as long as I get to eat some healthy foods too . Same with the earth . . . Get all heated up about doing something special on this end of the environmental spectrum, and something else will go wanting for repairs or remediation on the other end . Project "Bootstrap" is not working . . . it's likely that mankind will not become polarized into a sole purpose as far as I can see . . and just not doing any bad is not good enough . But I reiterate that mankind is not solely responsible for the swings in weather and earth pollution . PS: I think the US is the ONLY country responding to the Kyoto Resolution/Protocol .	SurferJoe46 (51)
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