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Thread ID: 83829	2007-10-15 00:53:00	anti-terror law	robsonde (120)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
601516	2007-10-15 07:47:00	He's talking about a molatov cocktail.	pine-o-cleen (2955)
601517	2007-10-15 08:21:00	True, (well, I don't steal,period) But if 2 lots of people done some crap many generations ago I would say get over it, You will never go forward if you can't get your head out of the past. That might be true if the crap we're talking about (the misdeeds of the Crown) were minor transgressions - but they're not. The Crown wrongs that give rise to most Maori grievances were acts of sheer greed carried out with the most two-faced dishonesty that it boggles the mind that these things lay unaddressed for so long. I'm not going top pretend I have the magic answer, Though I know its neither money nor guns. The government rules not just by the vote that got it into power - but by the concept of honour. This is one of the most important legs that supports a democratic mandate. Anybody can discern that when an honourable person commits a wrong they apologise and make amends. It is the same for government.	Deane F (8204)
601518	2007-10-15 08:29:00	Tell me, Do you abuse Germans in the street for ww2? Do you think in 150 years from now your great great Grand children will abuse Germans for WW2? after all, They started a war that killed millions, surely they MUST PAY. Hold a few military camps so we can go kill a few as payback? All because of the past. Amends have been made over and over again for a problem that none of us were party to, and pandering to their wants has made the problem worse. Having said that, I'm all for tolerating the lunatic fringe, Until they decide to kill us.	Metla (12)
601519	2007-10-15 08:42:00	Tell me, Do you abuse Germans in the street for ww2? Do you think in 150 years from now your great great Grand children will abuse Germans for WW2? after all, They started a war that killed millions, surely they MUST PAY. They did pay: "The eastern victors demanded payment of war reparations from the defeated nations, and in the Paris Peace Treaty, the Soviet Union's enemies—Hungary, Finland and Romania—were required to pay $300,000,000 each to the Soviet Union. Italy was required to pay $360,000,000, shared chiefly between Greece, Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union. The much larger reparations from occupied Germany to Russia were to be paid not by goods or money but by the transfer of capital goods, such as dismantled manufacturing plants. A separate reparation was 3,000,000 German former prisoners of war, as well as many civilians, that were forced to labour in Russia. Some did not get to return until well into the 1950s. Reparations to the western victors consisted mainly of free coal deliveries as well as of machinery and dismantled factories, of which the majority went to France, with some going to Britain. Germany and Italy also paid in the form of POW-provided forced labor; 100,000 in Britain and 700,000 in France. The U.S settled for appropriating German patents as well as all German company assets in the U.S. The "intellectual reparations", such as patents and blueprints, taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10 billion, equivalent of around $100 billion in 2006 terms. Amends have been made over and over again Amends have not been made over and over again. Each settlement has been full and final. for a problem that none of us were party to It is the Crown that has made amends. That is, the Governor General in Counsel (cabinet). So it isn't you, me or us. It's the Crown recognising the inheritance of a problem that their forbears caused - and acting to fix it.	Deane F (8204)
601520	2007-10-15 08:46:00	But did the Germans pay me? Nope. Time to make a claim for my suffering. and that is my point	Metla (12)
601521	2007-10-15 08:48:00	woops, silly me, I haven't suffered from the actions of the Germans at all, What a pity, If only my family had taught me I had, Then I would have case. :thumbs:	Metla (12)
601522	2007-10-15 08:50:00	Amends have been made over and over againThe Crown have never apologised for the actions of the past. They have never admitted wrong doing. IN fact its only been in the last 20 years that the so-called facts of our past have actually become known. When we went to school, there was only one version of the Treaty of Waitangi (the english version), we were never taught about the Maori Land Wars, Parihaka was an unknown place, and we never knew that the English in all their wisdom had banned Te Reo Maori (now NZ's co-national language) Why were all these things withheld? Yet we were taught all about the Japanese and the way they treated Allys. WE were taught all about the Germans and their killing of 6 million Jews by the Nazi's (not all Germans were Nazis) Incidentally, the Nazis were hunted down like the animals they were, yet the Crown were just civilising the natives??	Myth (110)
601523	2007-10-15 08:55:00	The Crown have never apologised for the actions of the past. They have. Here is part of their apology to Ngai Tahu: "The Crown hereby acknowledges the work of the Ngāi Tahu ancestors and makes this apology to them and to their descendants. The Crown acknowledges that it acted unconscionably and in repeated breach of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi in its dealings with Ngāi Tahu in the purchases of Ngāi Tahu land."	Deane F (8204)
601524	2007-10-15 08:58:00	But did the Germans pay me? Nope . Time to make a claim for my suffering . Let us know how you get on . Out of interest, will you bring suit in the German jurisdiction?	Deane F (8204)
601525	2007-10-15 08:58:00	Obviously there is a difference of opinion as to what would qualify as amends. For some nothing will suffice, Many others are willing to move on. I know the crew I spend every day with will receive no such payments, nor did they ask for one. Anyway. I went to a...uh...gathering a few months back that fell into 3 days of bickering and arguing over the one tribe mounting raids on another and a couple of murders, all done about 200 years ago, This "wound" was reopened after a group gathering shell fish asked another about their heritage and then decided they weren't allowed to gather in their area. Which then re-ignited some crap about warriors claiming some land as payment for killing some other dudes and settling the land. and how many in another tribe still to this day want there descendants removed. More drama then an episode of Shortland St, and just about as constructive. Looking to the past will only trap you in it.	Metla (12)
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