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Thread ID: 84540	2007-11-09 17:18:00	Petrol Prices	Choker (12893)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
609879	2007-11-11 03:37:00	NZ had something better than coal - CNG. Remember that stuff? Plenty of it must still be around because many people are still using it in their homes. NZ reportedly had at one time the best vehicle-CNG infrastrutures in the world. I also remember some contraption that you could use to fill your car up at home - very slowly though. Muldoon (remember him?) stumped up subsidised installations which were wildly popular - until the Middle East troubles/petrol crisis of the late 70's went away and the petrol price dropped. I vaguely remember oil companies ripping out the tanks and bowsers from the petrol station I worked at as a kid and sold them to "poor" Eastern European countries.	vinref (6194)
609880	2007-11-11 04:46:00	Its not difficult, you can take sea-water and then separate hydrogen from the oxygen.. problem is, why would a multi-billion dollar industry such as the oil companies be wanting to go down without a fight? And why would they be interested in seeing their competitor succeed? That'd be like Microsoft saying "Well, Linux is free and has better security, plus think of the price people will save when they buy a PC. Shucks we'd better just give in now...", aint gonna happen! Only problem is to seperate the hydrogen from the water takes as much electrical power as the energy content of the hydrogen. Ok if you had nuclear or lots of wind power but hugely ineffecient. C1 exactly: all that achieves is a glorified battery with efficiency that makes even lead-acid look good:yuck: With Global warming, has anyone thought how al of those hydrogen and atomic explosions have acted as a Retro force and placed our planet off scew, they use small retro rockets in space to make small adjustmets any larger and they would finish up in outer/outer space. rocketry (well, chemical rocketry) works by conservation of mass: ie, throwing mass one way very fast to move another mass the other way. if you set off a bomb, made from earth materials, on earth, then you aren't pushing the earth very far at all. if that bomb acted to send mass outside of the earths gravitational reach, like a rocket, then you'll get somewhere; very, very slowly. more likely to ignite the ozone layer than we are to blow the earth off orbit... NZ had something better than coal - CNG. Remember that stuff? Plenty of it must still be around because many people are still using it in their homes. uh, not how the world works sorry. not saying you're wrong, but your logic is somewhat flawed. the problem with coal-to-fuel is that coal again is a finite resource, and plants-to-fuel is the stupidest idea yet, as cropland again is a finite resource and we need that for food. electric vehicles are better in every way except that they are not readily available (which is fast changing). if the world adopted IPT (inductive power transfer) even battery limitations would be overcome and you would never need to stop to recharge (cables/coils run under road can wirelessly power receiving coils in vehicles via mutual inductance. currently used in dust free environments, to recharge golf carts, and to power LED road reflectors in places where they need to protect the cable by putting it under road. at the uni of auckland the electrical engineering faculty has an annual 4th year competition whereby they race remote control cars with IPT rather than batteries along an IPT track) But for electric we again need to produce the electricity in the first place. oil/coal for power is more efficient and cleaner than burning in cars, but doesn't solve any problems. nuclear again consumes limited and rare uranium. but is best environmental option. wind/hydro/solar are ok, but are not 100% reliable, and somehow the greens oppose hydro and occasionally wind too:illogical: EDIT: leaves geothermal...	motorbyclist (188)
609881	2007-11-11 05:25:00	Yes it would be good if we could get at some of the heat energy deep in the earth. The Aussies are looking at hot rocks in the artesian basin but the idea might not work as the water may leak through fissures. Idea ok. Geothermal is working out well in Iceland but good luck to them who would want to live there cold as Southland. Geothermal in NZ a pretty finite resourse as well as the pressure starts dropping over the years. I am a fan of nuclear but put the stations south of chch. Could take the waste and dump it on Campbell/Auckland islands. Been there a few times and the place is **** only thing to do is night clubbing..........penguins. C1	chicken one (6501)
609882	2007-11-11 05:45:00	the problem with coal-to-fuel is that coal again is a finite resource, . . . . . . . . . . . read on, Mc Duff . . . the "Problem" as you state it is just that . . . a "Problem" . . too many questions, too many pink-place ideas and no real science . electric vehicles are better in every way except that they are not readily available (which is fast changing) . if the world adopted IPT (inductive power transfer) even battery limitations would be overcome and you would never need to stop to recharge The conversion to an induced current is rife with dumb-ness . It''s totally counterproductive and extremely wasteful of energy . You wanna live next to one of those places that produce induced electricity? The heat exchangers and cooling towers alone will consume almost all the output and what's left will sterilize bio-forms for miles around . Don't wear a pacemaker, want to have children without multiple cranial protrusions or webbed toes and chickens or sheep that glow in the dark and are pre-cooked on the hoof! (cables/coils run under road can wirelessly (sic) power receiving coils in vehicles via mutual inductance . The transmission and charging/consumption losses are HUGE! Bad idea . . back to UNI for more physics classes . currently used in dust free environments (Just great! Now we gotta vacuum our streets and highways!) , to recharge golf carts, (not practical on a large scale but would make the OJ Simpsons of the world happy) and to power LED road reflectors (That's cute . . . but just a silly parlor trick too!) in places where they need to protect the cable by putting it under road (looks like a good job for the WPA and other Social Services, hiring the local talent to put more cables under roads that have unmarked and uncharted cables/wires/water pipes and sewer systems already in place . . . ZAP!) . at the uni of auckland the electrical engineering faculty has an annual 4th year competition whereby they race remote control cars (Yes . . but can a Mailibu Barbie AND Ken ride in the same vehicle? This is toys . . . not practical and/or very expandable to full-sized people and cargoes) with IPT rather than batteries along an IPT track)Most ALL battery technology is dumb and energy wasteful . The related losses of wasted energy grow exponentially with the increase from Barbie to you and me . . . and gets worse if we marry and want to carry a wife and offspring around too at the same time . The numbers don't crunch at all . You need transmission lines and you still gotta make the electricity . . then you gotta convert it to a chemical solution in a closed reaction . . . this is Star Wars tech stuff here . . . maybe good in another 30 years . . but the problem will long be gone by then . . . and so will we! DON'T FORGET THE HEAT LOSSES AND GASSES FROM THE CHEMICAL REACTIONS EITHER! But for electric we again need to produce the electricity in the first place . Yeah . . . rubbing cats' fur is kinda risky and not very productive . oil/coal for power is more efficient and cleaner than burning in cars, but doesn't solve any problems . Nope! Burning coal distillates is much cleaner . Refining is also much less energy-consumptive . It solves many, manifold problems . . . plethora problems . . . a large number of problems . . . and that's because the technology is almost already 99% in place with the current typed of internal combustion vehicles and fuel distribution systems we now have . nuclear again consumes limited and rare uranium . but is best environmental option . What about breeder reactors? Huh? wind/hydro/solar are ok, but are not 100% reliable, and somehow the greens oppose hydro and occasionally wind too:illogical: Get real . . . the greens are just spoilers looking for a harp to play and a song to sing . . they have no answers . . . just state problems and then circumscribe the answers offered until they make up some weird-science type breakthrough that ain't coming befoer the next ice age begins anyway . They just like to get the agony spread all over the place so they can say "I told you so" . . when they don't offer anything but dissension . EDIT: leaves geothermal . . . Actually, Herr Doktor Diesel tried to persuade people and other engineers to run his engine on coal oil in the first place . He used compression ignition engines as a great answer to what he felt was a non-infinite amount of petroleum in the ground . He is now exonerated . Diesel-cycle engines are just much more efficient and if we had heeded his bellwether statements and designs, we'd be a lot better off with having used far less liquefied dinosaurs at this point in time too . But his ideas never took route because oil is so much easier to pump/transport/crack and carry as a fuel source in a mobile vehicle . Coal . . is infinitely more available . There are literally eons of coal left in the ground and it's just waiting for the people to get enough of the garbage for the oil companies and world leaders to get off their butts and do the right thing . Therine lies the problem . . "THE RIGHT THING" . . . . . . kinda an oxymoron statement in just: an indefinite article, an adjective and a noun . I don't see Herr Doktor's knowledge working in the next seven generations or so . . . . don't buy into coal futures and stocks . .	SurferJoe46 (51)
609883	2007-11-11 06:38:00	We were taught at school Rudolf Desiel run his first engines on vegetable oil specifically peanut oil. C1	chicken one (6501)
609884	2007-11-11 10:02:00	surferjoe, IPT is used in dustfree environments, like silicon chip manufacturing, because they allow for brushless/wireless carts/whatever to travel along guided rails without making dust. IPT is very versatile, even used to recharge toothbrushes, and widely used for golf carts. one example is a tourist place in NZ where a bus thing travels around a park and will recharge at every stop while tourists take photos. hell, even my induction stove and induction furnaces work on a similar principle the efficiency is very high, frequency and range both have effects here for better or for worse. it is basically a transformer (exact same principle and setup, without the iron core) there is no danger to your health, the only danger is that if you drop a ferrous metal on the road it will heat up - and i wouldn't put my cellphone on it. of course one could "steal" electricity too. the powered road markers are legal requirements in many countries, and places like sweden require that they are powered by ipt in tunnels incase of a fire - so the lights will not go out due to power loss. and electric cars are very capable of carrying loads at speed over distances, the only real limit is the distance - i'm yet to see better than 400km (approx 200miles), but even that isn't too bad unless you're going on a big trip (in NZ, 400km is pretty far) i know greens are retards, that was my point. wind and hydro should be top of their list along with nuclear, but it seems they oppose all technology... as for nuclear scrubbing and coal distillates to run cars - i never considered those but you're probably right there. you're right in that there will be power losses in the cabling, but batteries or ipt, the whole system from generator to car to road is still more efficient than the 35% ideal you get from combustion. of course, "combusting" to make that power throws that out the window, and oil is dirt cheap, but is still found to be cleaner to run an electric car on coal generated power than your standard petrol car, plus we can localise that pollution away from our homes and workplaces i was just pointing out that there is technology available, that will, beleive it or not, eliminate the need for 90% of batteries in an electric car (you'd still need a few for parking on the footpath/running on unpowered/gravel roads)	motorbyclist (188)
609885	2007-11-11 15:37:00	We were taught at school Rudolf Desiel (sic) run his first engines on vegetable oil specifically peanut oil . C1 Absolutely! He was trying to find alternate fuels . . and ya gotta remember that even the Chinese tried things like flour and gun powder too . It wasn't so much a race for technical superiority, but these noble people were trying to alleviate dependency on ANY resource . . . . not just coagulated dinosaurs juice . I'd like to believe that anyway . This was am entirely open field of research . . but it was goaded on by the need to move away from the horse and buggy . . they had dreams and ideals that needed immense (for that time) power production from something that was readily available to them . Whatever energy source they decided upon they knew would shape the world in ultimate marketing, transportation and even considering availability of what they chose to use or design their "engines" for, safety to the general operators . I have never heard of a peanut oil plant blowing up, historically that is . There's no sense in inventing an electric toaster if electricity hadn't been yet invented . Diesel fuel however, wasn't all that popular at the time . . . I can't imagine what it was good for without an engine . . maybe for sooty lighting in wick lamps . . . . but peanut oil and vegetable oils were . . . and after all, the Diesel-cycle engine is just an oil burner anyway . . . so it's not too far up the viscosity scale to try to burn them too . I'm not even sure what the Diesel oil was called before the invention of the Diesel engine . . . the name wasn't coined yet . . . so if anyone has an inkling . . . let me know . I have heard that it is a "burn-off" or "throw-away" by product that wasn't of any good at all until a use was found for it . Pencil out the factors though . . . a compression-ignition engine . . even if it were nominally a few percentage points more efficient because of higher temperatures and total fuel usage, would have likely had a much better effect on the finite oil supplies consumption in the very first place . After sight is priceless . . but unfortunately too late to make any difference . Let's move on to coal and get it right this time . Just remember to K . I . S . S . Let's not think zebras here . . . I agree that all the whiz bang things that COULD be done are cute . . but we need solid, dependable and useful energy supplies and sources and we should somehow invoke the same delivery systems and storage facilities that we now have so universally designed . Let it evolve, not devolve .	SurferJoe46 (51)
609886	2007-11-12 06:23:00	Oil prices should be somewhere near $60/barrel realistically . Current oil price being close to $100/barrel is not because of supply shortage but because of speculative activity going on in energy prices . . The Americans are feeling the pinch and crying out but their prices is way below what NZs and others in the world pay . Currently average petrol in US is 92 cents per Litre . . . cheap as !!!! . . . that price we saw in NZ in 2000/2001 . And the Americans who are crying are the ones who have those big as SUVs	xpcoe (12594)
609887	2007-11-12 06:38:00	don't they use oil to heat their homes in northern states and the UK?	motorbyclist (188)
609888	2007-11-12 06:44:00	Most here also drive over 125 miles one way to work and have a lot more travel here than NZ in the first place . That's 201 . 17km each way . Try that on expensive gas . There is no inter-community public transportation, although there IS a little inner city busing and a few commuter trains . Most don't make enough money to actually live where we work and need to have our homes that far outside of town just to survive . ALSO . . everything . . and I mean EVERYTHING travels by truck between the cities . Food, oil, construction supplies, new cars/trucks, EVERYTHING!	SurferJoe46 (51)
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