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Thread ID: 86746	2008-01-27 10:40:00	Question for SurferJoe46	zqwerty (97)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
634438	2008-01-27 10:40:00	Joe can you tell me what will be the result of running a car with the fluid in the automatic gearbox too low? The car is a Nissan Pulsar X1 and at the moment I don't know/can't see where the fluid should be put in lol. What fluid should I use? I have never owned an automatic. It is my girlfriends car and just found out tonight on checking the fluids that the auto is low, just below LOW, had to let her drive home without taking any further action, she wants to drive it tomorrow, is this a recipe for disaster, will get it done by someone who knows what they are doing in the next few days.	zqwerty (97)
634439	2008-01-27 12:29:00	automagic transmission fluid, and things will get hot/damaged without it get it looked at asap as it may be leaking the oil, but asfaik it's not an emergency, yet..... and besides, a good tune up never hurts; can often pay for itself in boosted fuel economy (and replacing parts before they break and damage others is another good money saver - always amazes me how people leave things till it's too late, especially when the failure of some parts can cause the car to crash, causing injury and insurance claims) EDIT: oh, wait, i'm not joe...... well when he logs on feel free to disregard my advice in light of contradictory information	motorbyclist (188)
634440	2008-01-27 17:40:00	Joe can you tell me what will be the result of running a car with the fluid in the automatic gearbox too low? The car is a Nissan Pulsar X1 and at the moment I don't know/can't see where the fluid should be put in lol . What fluid should I use? I have never owned an automatic . It is my girlfriends car and just found out tonight on checking the fluids that the auto is low, just below LOW, had to let her drive home without taking any further action, she wants to drive it tomorrow, is this a recipe for disaster, will get it done by someone who knows what they are doing in the next few days . Interestingly, you can have a slight low-reading on the fluid when the transmission is cold and it will read correct when it warms up . Some fluids . . especially the Japanese ATFs are more like this than the US versions, although the Japanese fluids are much better quality than we get here . I'd be inclined to say that if the fluid did not show on the stick at all . . . then you'd have a real problem . . but as it is the amount that the fluid is indicating might only be a cup full or a little more . Typically the automatic transmissions on front wheel drives hold about 11 to 16 quarts (22 to 32 cups full) so a slight low level does not represent the end of the world . You put the fluid in, in the same place where you test the level . It's small-ish and usually requires a long, thin funnel . . but it goes right down the same dipstick tube as the dipstick itself . It's not too much . . . but make sure you are checking it at the right time and under the right conditions . Have a run around the block . . . park on a level place (not too critical) and leave the engine running . . . . and for a more correct reading, have the parking brake set on hard and the transmission in Neutral . "Park" may not give a correct reading if the transmission is a Mitsubishi/Chrysler hybrid . They don't pump fluid thru the system when they are in Park and will give a false reading unless they are at least in Neutral or any gear other than Park . Pull the stick, wipe it clean and reinsert and then remove it again and see what you get . Take a couple of readings . . they might be all different and you'll develop a touch for it pretty quickly . If it's on the stick at all . . . . right at or below the ADD mark . . then do just that . . . but remember that we are not talking Liters or Gallons here . . . the actual indication is for a small amount of fluid . Usually the manufacturers allow you to put 1/2 quart (2 cups) of fluid in at the ADD mark . . . so you can see it's not very much at all . Indications of fluid that is too low: The transmission will "whine" as the front pump cavitates, drawing air into the vanes and resulting in the sound . The transmission will take a few moments to go into gear or won't go into gear at all . . . because of the air in the system and the low flow to the forward and low clutches and/or bands . You will feel a certain "coming out of drive conditions" as you go down the road where the engine seems to speed up but the vehicle doesn't . This is called uncoupling and is likely from a very low fluid condition . Mostly . . if you SHOULD get a too low condition, the transmission will talk to you . Very likely you haven't done any damage . . . there just wasn't enough fluid to make it work correctly . . and likely there is no damage . The clutches and bands, if they don't get any fluid pressure signal to work . . . just WON'T and the vehicle doesn't move . There MAY however be a little slippage and burning if the condition is allowed to continue for a length of time . . . . say for a few weeks or so . Contrary to popular belief, the clutches and/or bands do NOT slip when they are applied . If they did they'd die a horrible death almost instantly or by the next few applications at most . They are not designed to slip . . as they are very thin paper-like friction material discs interlaced with steel discs and the ability to slide is just not designed into them . Any slippage that you perceive is done by the torque converter . . . it is the sole device that allows for such transition from gear to gear . . and it takes all the heat and abuse that would then have to be absorbed by the clutches/bands unto itself . It gets very hot doing this . It is almost the sole heat generating device in the drivetrain . It is the device that kills the fluid and creates the need to change the ATF at regular intervals . So . . . no, I don't believe you have any real troubles . . . if the transmission works as it should, has no visible external leaks and is warmed up and level and you test the fluid level under those conditions . . and you see that it needs a cup or so of ATF . . . just put it in and drive away . Just be sure to use the correct product . Nissan has it's own calibrated fluid . . . but all the major manufacturers do too . . so you are very safe using just Type "D" or "M", or Dexron/Mercon-5 types . I doubt seriously that you can purchase Dexron-II any more . It was almost as good as the Japanese stuff . . . but it got legislated out of existence here . . and likely there too . Do NOT use Type-U, or "Universal" fluids . They are junk and should not even exist . You CAN use a good grade of 5W/15 engine oil if necessary . . . . but that is a last-ditch-wife's-in-labor-gotta-get-to-the-maternity-ward type scenario . Don't overfill by any substantial amount . . SOME Overfill is OK . . . . but not 'way up the stick! I don't believe that you can or should be able to still get Type-F fluid . . even in NZ . . . it isn't the right fluid and must be avoided in modern transmissions . It's rumored . . and I don't know if this holds water . . . that the Japanese ATFs have whale oil in them . If so, then that's a shame . . . but their fluids are far and away superior to what we can get here in the US . . and when we find a Japanese imported-as-used transmission and if it has fluid in it . . . we save it for our own personal use . . . it's that much more superior even when used!	SurferJoe46 (51)
634441	2008-01-27 18:45:00	Thank You Very Much for all that information Joe, much appreciated.	zqwerty (97)
634442	2008-01-27 19:13:00	Just in case you want to see some of the insides of a transmission, I've Googled and scanned a few things for you to see . First . . the clutch pack ( . imagef1 . net . nz/files/8Red_PP . jpg" target="_blank">www . imagef1 . net . nz) . This is typical of the alternate pattern of "fiber-steel" design that has stood so well in almost all automatic transmissions to date . There are some exceptions, but most just use paper or a paper-like element fused onto the fiber clutches . It is quite thin and won't take much abuse at all . . . but then again there shouldn't be any abuse if everything's working right . Here's a stack as they appear ( . imagef1 . net . nz/files/basketclutch . jpg" target="_blank">www . imagef1 . net . nz)in a graphic generated pix . This is called a "clutch basket" or "stack" . Notice that there is more than just friction material and alternate steel plates in this . Now HERE ( . imagef1 . net . nz/files/stack . jpg" target="_blank">www . imagef1 . net . nz) is another interesting pix . There are 6 clutch elements here and they are usually for a 4 speed auto trans . Sometimes clutch tasks are handled by "bands and drums" that perform the same function, but usually at a lower power rate . Bands are not as strong as clutch packs . HERE ( . imagef1 . net . nz/files/stack_01 . jpg" target="_blank">www . imagef1 . net . nz) is a 6-element clutch pack from a Ford C6 . . . typical . . but even with a huge engine in front of it, these flimsy-looking paper/steel/paper stacks are capable of tremendous horsepower and torque loads . . . IF they don't slip! For your consideration: These clutch packs are not lubricated but in the simplest ways: they get slung-off oil from the lubrication circuit . . . and they are not force-fed ATF to lubricate them . They just get leftover oil from the various components and bearings that happens to sling into them . It's not necessary to have them bathed in fluid all the time . . . the only reason for any fluid on them at all is for heat transfer . . . they work perfectly well in an almost starved for lube setting! Remember that they DO NOT SLIDE! I have (read: always) install the clutch packs dry and let the spin-off fluid lube them in the first 20 miles or so . . . it makes it a lot easier to set up the clearances and application depths when they are dry and when I get the clearances I want, I just leave them that way even if they are dry . They will get sufficient lubrication when they run for a while . They don't hold a significant amount of fluid and won't affect the fluid level at the least . Here is a valve body ( . imagef1 . net . nz/files/valvebody-3 . jpg" target="_blank">www . imagef1 . net . nz) . . typical . . but the newer ones are all electronic with solenoids and relays and such and actually are a little less complicated . The emphasis is to take the ultimate control away from the valve body and shift it to the ECM for the powertrain and that makes the transmissions last a lot longer . Here's another valve body to see ( . imagef1 . net . nz/files/vb_ck_ball_loc . jpg" target="_blank">www . imagef1 . net . nz) . This is a 3-speed and is very simple . It gives an idea of the level of sophistication for the new units though . Here's a site to make you dream of Horsepower and performance transmissions . ( . transmissioncenter . net/4l60e . htm" target="_blank">www . transmissioncenter . net) This is still a very large part of my world . . . I will answer questions if you have any . Just remember that I am in a totally different time/date zone as you are and might need a little time to see your question and respond .	SurferJoe46 (51)
634443	2008-01-27 19:34:00	I know for a fact the transmission can run without oil for a while. LOL.Mine is still going ok since I refilled it from my previous mistake where it was completely emptied. I got transmission oil from Supercheep that came in a bottle with a spout that fitted the dip stick hole for topping up. Joe, if you are reading this my car was a Mitzy Galant. Ever since I had it, it changes out of overdrive into 4th when I coast down a hill. Never seen that before, is it normal? I havent looked at your photos yet but they sound interesting. Thanks for you educational series.	tut (12033)
634444	2008-01-27 20:05:00	I know for a fact the transmission can run without oil for a while. LOL.Mine is still going ok since I refilled it from my previous mistake where it was completely emptied. I got transmission oil from Supercheep that came in a bottle with a spout that fitted the dip stick hole for topping up. Joe, if you are reading this my car was a Mitzy Galant. Ever since I had it, it changes out of overdrive into 4th when I coast down a hill. Never seen that before, is it normal? I havent looked at your photos yet but they sound interesting. Thanks for you educational series. Joe might be fishing in the icy water just now, but some transmissions do this. If the speed continues to increase when you lift your foot due to the slope, it will change down to give engine braking. Personally, I think it is a great feature in a slush box.	R2x1 (4628)
634445	2008-01-27 20:18:00	I know for a fact the transmission can run without oil for a while . LOL . Mine is still going ok since I refilled it from my previous mistake where it was completely emptied . I got transmission oil from Supercheep that came in a bottle with a spout that fitted the dip stick hole for topping up . Joe, if you are reading this my car was a Mitzy Galant . Ever since I had it, it changes out of overdrive into 4th when I coast down a hill . Never seen that before, is it normal? I havent looked at your photos yet but they sound interesting . Thanks for you educational series . Typically the Mitsubishi O/D transmission has some troubles with the Torque Converter lock-up switch . . . it won't hold lock-up or it dumps out of it during coast-down and no throttle . Fourth gear IS Overdrive . . so you might be feeling the wrong symptom here . . . let me explain: FIRST: >>>>>You could have a defective BARO, BMAP, CTS or TPS sensor too . I have also seen the CMP (Cam Position Sensor) fail and cause this . Only a couple of these will cause a code to set in the ECM but they . . any one of them . . . can make the transmission act badly . You also need to know that many people make the mistake of "feeling" like the O/D or L/U isn't working . . . when it may not be the true problem . Here's the typical shift sequence at normal throttle, level roads and not much headwind or weight to haul: Starts in 1st (low) gear are normal no matter what position of the shift quadrant . Second gear enters at about 1300 RPM or about 19-20 MPH . Third gear (normally called "direct drive" or not using the O/D or U/D (Underdrive) condition . . the engine rpms equal the driveshaft speed) then happens, and TC Lock-up is ENABLED . . . but may NOT be used according to power demands, road conditions, coolant temperature and transmissions fluid temperature conditions are all met . Usually, L/U which is in the torque converter is able to engage here, but there are reasons why it won't or cannot . Fourth gear happens and usually right behind it comes another small "bump" which confuses many drivers . This is the torque converter going into "lock-up" mode . . whereby the fluid drive condition of the converter is now supplanted by a clutch that is usually in the converter itself . You cannot be in L/U when this last shift happens or you'll knock your teeth out at full throttle or rattle the sheet metal at less than wide open throttle . It will hit HARD and NASTY! . The timing of the L/U is usually dire3ctly AFTER O/D is entered . . . not before . Some transmissions use a "burp" timer to release the L/U which it was allowed to run in L/U in 3rd gear . . . just for the time it takes to complete the shift and then L/U comes back in again . This condition (L/U) affords several things . First . . it allows the engine to then be totally-mechanically-physically attached to the drive wheels with no fluid intervention at all . This provides maximum fuel economy, cools the fluid or doesn't make it run as hot as when the converter is in the "conversion-mode" or allowing fluid slippage . Second, it can save considerable thermal load on the cooling system by technically removing the big heat generator . . the converter . . . out of the loop . The only thing that really makes heat in the transmission is the torque converter . . it makes that by allowing the fluid to absorb the engine speed and convert it to the twisting force that propels the wheels at start-up from stop and during the time when the clutches/gear ratios are changing . . . . . like an upshift or downshift . Remember that the individual clutches do NOT slip . . and any shift forces must be absorbed by the converter . . and that's like slipping a manual clutch a moment to get the vehicle moving or to shift gears . So . . . in a nutshell, the shifts are as follows: 1>>2>>3>>4>>Lock-up . Let me explain some of that . !st gear is a REDUCTION GEAR . 2nd GEAR is an INTERMEDIATE GEAR 3rd is a 1:1 ratio or DIRECT DRIVE RATIO . 4th is an O/D GEAR . Lock/Up is an accessory to the upper gears for several reasons and purposes . Here's where it gets odd . . . . . . . IF L/U doesn't happen, (and some people think it's not L/U but they think it's O/D), then there's likely a problem under some internal mechanical or computer problem circumstances . This happens also under some strange situations . Is the Check Engine or Service Engine Soon light on? Does you ABS light stay on? Is your parking brake light lit? There are two levels of brightness to this light too . . . observe carefully! Is the vehicle overheated or THINKS it is? Is the L/U or O/D command being sent to the transmission? Is the transmission smoked or burned up? Is the transmission worn out? You need to provide a little more info for me . . but things may prove not be a large problem .	SurferJoe46 (51)
634446	2008-01-27 21:44:00	... a good tune up never hurts; can often pay for itself in boosted fuel economy ... I fully agree with your above view. My question here is: How many garages in NZ (other than those authorised service agents which may cost you lots) have the computer equipment to tune a modern computerized engine?	bk T (215)
634447	2008-01-27 22:22:00	I fully agree with your above view . My question here is: How many garages in NZ (other than those authorised service agents which may cost you lots) have the computer equipment to tune a modern computerized engine? There really is no such thing as a tune-up any more . Just like in the 1930s-40s, a tune-up included a ring and valve job . . . . but then engines began to last longer than the rings and valve seats . . . so the emphasis was on "plugs-point-condenser" replacements on a regular schedule . With computer management of the emissions and the sensors and activators, it's not a thing to do any more either . Regular oil changes, coolant changes and brake wear inspections . . . are about all that's needed . Those and tires and windshield wipers are about it . I recommend that the timing belts (when equipped), be replaced every 60,000 miles; the oxygen sensors should be suspect at about the same time and the plugs should also be an occasional change too . Air filters, radiator hoses and motor mounts are something that go as they need to be replaced . Much more than plugs and maybe some plug wires . . if the new car even has them and doesn't have C . O . P set-ups, are all I can see as a timely thing to do . They do NOT qualify as a tune-up however . Most new engines have no distributor (DIS) and have no rotors, caps or wires or points either . Pay attention to the CEL or SES lights . . and that's about it . . . anything else is just a toss of your money . What then would you call a "tune-up" if not those things that don't exist any more?	SurferJoe46 (51)
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