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Thread ID: 91055	2008-06-24 21:04:00	Claims	Sweep (90)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
682084	2008-06-25 22:33:00	as far as I know this was all driven by the british govt back then so why are the claims not landing on their doorstep ?.....and as for todays people, you and I, paying for problems caused in the past.....well as no doubt has been said before how about we all try to claim in a court for that deal we got ripped off on or that bad agreement we didn't really want to sign but had to or or or or ?......... fat chance The claims don't go to the British Crown, because they got sick to death of the chicanery being carried out by the settler government and washed their hands of it. And then of course there was a whole drive here for independence from Britain, which was granted. With independence, the country inherits the obligations it entered into. Just remember that the only reason why you and I have any right to be in this country is because Maori granted that right by signing the Treaty of Waitangi. Check out the research by Prof Jock Brookfield, Professor of Law, University of Auckland. And Ngai Tahu at least could have gone to court for breach of contract for the government's failure to honour the contracts for sale of the bulk of the South Island. The Crown knew this, Ngai Tahu knew this, and it was in the background of the Treaty reconciliation process as an implicit incentive to the Crown to settle for a fraction of what Ngai Tahu would have been entitled to in an action for breach of contract. It could have bankrupted the country, so instead of whingeing, people should acknowledge the responsible attitude taken by Ngai Tahu.	John H (8)
682085	2008-06-25 22:46:00	(snip) I guess my point is that not a lot can be proven as nobody alive today was alive in 1840. Most so called knowledge was word of mouth so I presume that there are no actual witnesses alive that can testify to the events that took place at that time. I further note that you have not commented on where the money actually ends up!!! The whole issue is dividing the country unfortunately. I just want one country and all laws apply equally to all citizens regardless of race. There are substantial records of what took place in the negotiations and various signings of the Treaty around the country, as well as oral records. Have a look at Claudia Orange's book The Story of a Treaty. I did comment above about where the money actually ends up - the bulk of it has been invested to provide an income stream for the future benefit of Ngai Tahu members. I believe that most has been invested around the South Island in particular - for example, in land (I commented that Ngai Tahu is now the second biggest land owner here behind the Crown), and businesses such as tourism ventures (e.g. one of the jet boat businesses in Queenstown) etc etc. And of course there is a tie up with SeaLord, but I am not clear about what that is. I am not an expert on their investments or strategies, but if you want to follow this up, have a look at their website. You could start here: www.ngaitahu.iwi.nz I don't think this whole thing is dividing the country. Both major political parties have been following the strategy of sorting out the past injustices against iwi for many years - National has in fact been more committed and more effective than Labour in this regard. The Tories may be a bunch of miserable plonkers, but Doug Graham was the key politician sorting this out. He basically said that Kiwis are not comfortable with injustice and want it sorted out. It is only people who don't take the time to educate themselves about what the injustices were who feel aggrieved. And we do have laws that apply equally to all citizens regardless of race (thought they are not always policed fairly). The Treaty of Waitangi Act that set up the claims process was legitimately passed through Parliament, the same as any other legislation.	John H (8)
682086	2008-06-25 22:52:00	Like I said earlier rob, you have a closed mind and seem disinterested in doing a small amount of research to open it. Ah no. I did read but it closed my mind more. Im disinterested in paying for someone else crap. And being forced to. Your the one with the closed mind if you think I will change my view because you say so. Get real.	rob_on_guitar (4196)
682087	2008-06-25 22:57:00	I'm with John H on this. He seems to know his stuff, although it seems that's no substitute for sheer uneducated assumption and face-value judgements.	Thebananamonkey (7741)
682088	2008-06-25 22:57:00	I don't agree with the industry that has grown around the process. Nor the players, Closed minds aside the treaty is quite meaningless in today's world and doesn't nor did it ever cover all the crap that is going on today. I don't care in the slightest how people who constantly killed each other over land ended up losing it. They played the game and lost, Now they are a long time dead. That aside, Some pretty rough calls were made, so if the country wants to do this thinking it will right some wrongs and we can afford it, then so be it, But it has to stop at some point, its already out of control and being abused. Racist policy and treatment also needs to be stopped, You want to stop dieing of diabetes?, stop eating crap and go to the doctor, No need for billions spent on specific race based services that are also ignored.	Metla (12)
682089	2008-06-25 23:03:00	Being forced to pay!!!!! Do you ignoramuses actually know how much of your money is being spent in settling treaty claims? Last figure I saw put it at something under $10 per capita per annum. The millions being reported refer to estimated value of assets not to cash handed over. Martynz	martynz (5445)
682090	2008-06-25 23:11:00	@Metla - Oh well, lawyers are the hyenas of this world. In like hairy dogs whenever there is money to be made. Hence the government policy to try to keep the lawyers out of it and negotiate direct (though I suspect they bring their own lawyers along just in case). Most claimants have accepted way way less than what they lost through government scams. They are realistic and know they can't get all that they lost because that would bankrupt the country. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a big corporation went to court with a claim that the govt had dunned them - I doubt they would back off the way most iwi have done. Personally, I think the injustices should be sorted out even though it costs my generation. I don't think a country can afford to have a sizeable disaffected section of its population still seething after 170 years. What iwi will do with the outcome will be the important thing as Sweep is indicating. As far as race based policies are concerned, Labour got so spooked by Brash at Orewa that they fell over themselves to get rid of any policy in health and education that even smelt funny. That is one of the reasons I lost all confidence in this government - watching them racing around doing the "me too" thing (that they now accuse John Key of) and not having the courage of their convictions, convinced me that they are scabs.	John H (8)
682091	2008-06-25 23:11:00	Being forced to pay!!!!! Do you ignoramuses actually know how much of your money is being spent in settling treaty claims? Last figure I saw put it at something under $10 per capita per annum. The millions being reported refer to estimated value of assets not to cash handed over. Martynz Agreed. The settlements are minimal compared with other government expenditure like welfare benefits.	John H (8)
682092	2008-06-25 23:19:00	...They played the game and lost, Now they are a long time dead.... ...Its already out of control and being abused... The thing is that the British played the game too. They signed a contract that was legally binding. Look up Kawanatanga and Rangatiratanga in a maori dictionary and see how the contract was intentionally deceiving. Are you just assuming it's being abused? Or do you have some proof to back that up like John H does? Had the British just invaded then we'd probably not be facing anything like this. Mind you, given how hard a time the British had fighting the Maori in the wars, they may not have got nearly as far as they have this way.	Thebananamonkey (7741)
682093	2008-06-25 23:37:00	Had the British just invaded then we'd probably not be facing anything like this. Mind you, given how hard a time the British had fighting the Maori in the wars, they may not have got nearly as far as they have this way. Don't forget that there were many Maori on both sides of the negotiation table, and on both sides of the battlefield, They knew what they were doing, Playing the game to their advantage. Colonisation was done by negotiation (as well as warfare which was the accepted order of the day) as demonstrated by the Treaty and the signatures on it, A great deal of the land was sold for what the sellers considered a fair price, Back in the day it had little worth.They certainly weren't farming it Colonisation had a great cost but also bought great benefits, benefits so large they can't be counted, So now descendants of one side of the negotiation's have decided they disagree with their great grandfathers actions and want to back out of the deal, Not give up what they have, They want to keep that and get back what they negotiated away. And we are all meant to feel guilty about it. Thats excluding what was taken by force, But like I mentioned, Back in that time, Thats how it was done, By Maori and Non-Maori, and not just confined to NZ. We live in a better world, People need to chill out and enjoy it, Not screw themselves up over crap they played NO part in.	Metla (12)
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