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Thread ID: 96499	2009-01-12 08:41:00	Ethnic Origin	andrew93 (249)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
738036	2009-01-13 22:17:00	Yes a New Zealander troll.	rob_on_guitar (4196)
738037	2009-01-13 22:37:00	Congratulations - now you have worked out your nationality, you can start working out your ethnicity. :rolleyes:	John H (8)
738038	2009-01-13 22:52:00	Apologies in advance for the long post..... Like I mentioned earlier, who appoints these people to make these calls? I understand they have done their time with studies and so forth, and good on them, but if I choose to classify myself a certain way, on what basis can someone else (including anthropologists) dispute that? I agree there may be some confusion, but the definition of an ethnic group is a group of human beings who identify with each other on the basis of a characteristic such as heritage, culture, linguistics, religion, beliefs or behaviours etc whether that basis is real or imagined........ With respect you are confusing your personal feelings with scientific research across broad ranges of people. Ethnicity isn't assessed on the personal views of an individual but rather upon the culture and genetic markers of the group. The global interest in ethnicity is growing, not declining. This is a product of the information age which makes the tracing of lineage much easier than it has ever been in the past. Geneology is the new stamp collecting. Also people feel rootless, adrift and seek a connection with their origins. Locally we see this with urban Maori rediscovering their tribal backgrounds. I have a friend who is a member of a genetic database. Tracing mitochrondial DNA he is able to track his origins to a small village in the north of England. The database generates a map of the incidence of people with similar DNA and the dots clump around the original point. What is really interesting is that some of the other people on the database share similar physical characteristics and even ways of expressing themselves, even though they are 50 times removed from each other. Using DNA is a new way of tracking your ancestors.	Winston001 (3612)
738039	2009-01-13 23:20:00	Congratulations - now you have worked out your nationality, you can start working out your ethnicity. :rolleyes: New Zealander.	rob_on_guitar (4196)
738040	2009-01-13 23:23:00	Andrew,a decent chap, will attest,keeping things objective is not easy. We all have this tendency to relate things to Me.	Cicero (40)
738041	2009-01-13 23:24:00	With respect you are confusing your personal feelings with scientific research across broad ranges of people. Ethnicity isn't assessed on the personal views of an individual but rather upon the culture and genetic markers of the group. (snip) For what it is worth Winston, this does not square with the Statistics Dept definition of ethnicity (which I quoted above). Here is part of the definition: "Ethnicity is the ethnic group or groups that people identify with or feel they belong to. Ethnicity is a measure of cultural affiliation, as opposed to race, ancestry, nationality or citizenship. Ethnicity is self-perceived and people can belong to more than one ethnic group." I think that is probably important in NZ - your definition is close to the old laws that prescribed a certain blood percentage before you could claim to be Māori (these kinds of laws still exist in places like Canada, where someone identifying as First Nations, and descending from a First Nations ancestor, loses all rights to land inheritance if they do not have the required and legislated degree of blood descent). As you know, this does not apply here - you just need to be a proven descendant from a Māori ancestor. Those mitochondrial DNA tests are really interesting though. The three books by Brian Sykes (Seven daughters of Eve, Adam's Curse, and Blood of the Isles) are fascinating reading. But they are more about your origins through actual physical descent via the female line, rather than the ethnicity you identify with. I know I descend from Scots, Welsh and possibly Manx ancestry, but given that is now 5 generations ago, and my family and education has taught me very little about what that means, it is pretty meaningless. In common with most people of my generation, we had an English based education in NZ with very little recognition of other British histories. I would argue that the further away you get from the original migrant population, the more your ethnicity localises to where your immigrant ancestors settled. Especially given the way in which the culture has diverged from its mixed origins.	John H (8)
738042	2009-01-14 02:28:00	Those mitochondrial DNA tests are really interesting though. The three books by Brian Sykes (Seven daughters of Eve, Adam's Curse, and Blood of the Isles) are fascinating reading. Loosely speaking, mitochondrial DNA tests are proven to be more reliable than standard DNA tests in terms of tracking a person's ancestor as the former's DNA sequence tend to be "more preserved". As for my ethnic, I am a Chinese. :D	Renmoo (66)
738043	2009-01-14 02:43:00	For what it is worth Winston, this does not square with the Statistics Dept definition of ethnicity (which I quoted above). Here is part of the definition: "Ethnicity is the ethnic group or groups that people identify with or feel they belong to. Ethnicity is a measure of cultural affiliation, as opposed to race, ancestry, nationality or citizenship. Ethnicity is self-perceived and people can belong to more than one ethnic group." Fair enough John, my bad. :badpc: I was relying on the Oxford English Dictionary which is a primary source of definition. Race is the usual factor but not exclusively, and culture can be the identifying element too. .a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic. b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity.	Winston001 (3612)
738044	2009-01-14 04:18:00	Thanks for the input. Call me boring but I think this is quite fascinating......:) I understand where you are coming from Winston and I agree that is how it used to be. However, I subscribe to the points John put forward and in particular, if you look at the generally accepted definitions of ethnicity (other than the Oxford Dictionary :) ), then I believe that we can pick what we like, irrespective of what the experts would prefer we picked. The Dept of Stats definition bears this out. I agree this is 100% personal feelings but unfortunately that can't be avoided. You are also right about people trying to find a sense of belonging. However, IMO tracing ones blood lines will result in a person believing they are somehow associated with, or identify with, people with the same genetic markers, and I expect a significant number will be disappointed. So I think (100% opinion, not fact) we will see ethnic groups redefined and splinter in the not too distant future, reversing the current trend - albeit with manufactured / contrived ethnic groups like 'Kiwi' or 'New Zealander'. I believe there is a fellow in England who has been pushing for 'English' to be recognised as an ethnic group but is coming up against the same obstacles. Cheers Andrew	andrew93 (249)
738045	2009-01-14 04:37:00	@ Andrew - I noticed that in the Stats Dept statistics from the last census there was at least one person (maybe more - I didn't notice) whose ethnic origin was stated as Cornish, rather than English, so as you say, the distinctions get tighter for some people at least. I have recently been reading quite a bit about the Balkans - in particular about Bulgaria - and that reminded me of the breakup of the artificially constructed Yugoslavia, and how ethnic differences and related historical enmities have been at the basis of quite a lot of breakup of post WW11 European countries (e.g. Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, the division of Cyprus into two regions, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union etc). Much of this has been along ethnic lines. People just seem to want to be patriotic to an ethnic group of whatever basis (e.g. race, culture, religion) rather than a political construct, most of which were created by foreign powers like Britain, America, and France. Similar issues in Africa (e.g. Zimbabwe), and of course, the Middle East, which brings us back to the Gaza thread...	John H (8)
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