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Thread ID: 97122	2009-02-05 00:41:00	Dixon is dead, Long live dixon	plod (107)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
745108	2009-02-07 20:47:00	Might make for more intelligent company than rednecks I suppose. You sure got a purdy mouth.....	andrew93 (249)
745109	2009-02-07 22:18:00	This debate looks like it is going on forever :) The trials, and the 3rd trial Hart was trying to get were not really about whether Dixon did or did not kill anyone, but whether he was insane . Hart and Williams argue that he should not have been imprisoned, but should have been put into a secure mental institution . However they are forgetting that the "do gooders" have successfully had all mental institutions closed down, we no longer have a Lake Alice, which had a secure mental prison in the grounds . We do not have a "Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane" in New Zealand . (It has now been renamed to be more politically correct ! ) ( . wikipedia . org/wiki/Broadmoor_Asylum_for_the_Criminally_Insane" target="_blank">en . wikipedia . org) Even if we had, Williams and the Howard League would have long ago had it closed . A Q&A well known in medical circles: The medical profession crept into this because Deane tried to compare lawyers' ethics with those of Doctors . As I said this is not a valid comparison, doctors dont try to score points off each other, or excuse the death of a patient on a mere technicality . Be that as it may, Q&A??? question and answer???? :) QA may well be known in medical circles, but there is lttle evidence of formal QA procedures having been instituted on a national basis . The comments I made about the cancer treatment were valid there were no QA procedures in place at National Womens , likewise there were no QA procedures in place at Dr Bottrills so-called screening laboratory . I dont expect anyone to read the following but I quote the Cartwright report and The Gisborne Cervical Screening Enquiry to validate my assertions: . csi . org . nz/report/conclusions . htm" target="_blank">www . csi . org . nz . womens-health . org . nz/index . php?page=lessons-from-gisborne" target="_blank">www . womens-health . org . nz . womens-health . org . nz/index . php?page=the-ministers-plans-for-quality-control-and-accreditation" target="_blank">www . womens-health . org . nz . womens-health . org . nz/index . php?page=summary-of-findings-and-recommendations-from-cartwright-report" target="_blank">www . womens-health . org . nz The reason for all the QA talk is that a proper QA system in the justice system could well prevent the miscarriages of justice we have seen such as the Ellis case with all its "nonsense evidence" that was presented .	Terry Porritt (14)
745110	2009-02-07 22:41:00	QA may well be known in medical circles, but there is lttle evidence of formal QA procedures having been instituted on a national basis. Actually, there are mortality and morbidity conferences held all the time in hospitals after patient deaths and serious incidents. They are particular to the patient in question and involve a top-down analysis of the case by the clinicians and nurses involved. Also, for a while now the incident reporting system in hospitals has been on a no-blame basis - this encourages self-reporting and in particular, self-reporting of near-misses and assists in the development of better systems and more focused training. I know this because I work in a hospital and have self-reported a few times. The reason for all the QA talk is that a proper QA system in the justice system could well prevent the miscarriages of justice we have seen such as the Ellis case with all its "nonsense evidence" that was presented. The best estimates of researchers are that justice is miscarried in approximately 1 - 3 percent of cases. Not too bad, all things considered, I reckon.	Deane F (8204)
745111	2009-02-07 22:43:00	You sure got a purdy mouth..... Deliverance (from banjo players, please)...	Deane F (8204)
745112	2009-02-07 23:09:00	Actually, there are mortality and morbidity conferences held all the time in hospitals after patient deaths and serious incidents. They are particular to the patient in question and involve a top-down analysis of the case by the clinicians and nurses involved. Also, for a while now the incident reporting system in hospitals has been on a no-blame basis - this encourages self-reporting and in particular, self-reporting of near-misses and assists in the development of better systems and more focused training. I know this because I work in a hospital and have self-reported a few times. The best estimates of researchers are that justice is miscarried in approximately 1 - 3 percent of cases. Not too bad, all things considered, I reckon. Good, the points you raise would all be incorporated into a formal QA procedure or sets of procedures. There was a lot of resistance initially at the Physics and Engineering Laboratory when the lab was being formally QA accredited. The scientists there said "but we are are already doing those things", and anyway being the national standards lab, what we say goes, we are always right by definition, they thought it was a slur on their integrity. :) However instituting formalised procedures rather than being ad-hoc certainly smartened things up and increased international standing, I think. A problem with miscarriages of justice is that whilst the miscarriage seems evident to the majority of the population, the "establishment" always seem reluctant to concede they could have been wrong:stare: "Sept 30 2006, Theodore Dalrymple comments on the Peter Ellis case. Dalrymple concluded about the Peter Ellis sexual abuse affair, that "a New Zealand court has given credence to accusations that even the Spanish Inquisition might have found preposterous." So cases like this presumably would not be included in your 1-3 % ??	Terry Porritt (14)
745113	2009-02-08 00:03:00	The best estimates of researchers are that justice is miscarried in approximately 1 - 3 percent of cases. Not too bad, all things considered, I reckon. Besides the fact that estimates don't mean much if you happened to be part of that 1 to 3% you would not be a happy chappy.	mikebartnz (21)
745114	2009-02-08 00:10:00	This debate looks like it is going on forever :) <snip> The medical profession crept into this because Deane tried to compare lawyers' ethics with those of Doctors. As I said this is not a valid comparison, doctors dont try to score points off each other, or excuse the death of a patient on a mere technicality. Be that as it may, Q&A??? question and answer???? :) QA may well be known in medical circles, but there is lttle evidence of formal QA procedures having been instituted on a national basis. The comments I made about the cancer treatment were valid there were no QA procedures in place at National Womens , likewise there were no QA procedures in place at Dr Bottrills so-called screening laboratory. I dont expect anyone to read the following but I quote the Cartwright report and The Gisborne Cervical Screening Enquiry to validate my assertions: www.csi.org.nz www.womens-health.org.nz www.womens-health.org.nz www.womens-health.org.nz The reason for all the QA talk is that a proper QA system in the justice system could well prevent the miscarriages of justice we have seen such as the Ellis case with all its "nonsense evidence" that was presented. Just to clarify Terry - the point I was trying to get across is that surgeons (not all of them) consider themselves to be above the making of errors because they are, if not God, then one step away from that lofty status, because of the life-saving (in many cases) nature of their work. Nurses often joke about the fact that surgeons consider themselves godlike and expect, as a matter of right, respect and all their whims met, irrespective of whether or not the surgeon has earned that respect. Amazingly, many hospitals actually accede to this pressure, which only serves to reinforce a surgeon's great opinion of himself... There are other professionals who also have this view of themselves... That said, from a purely personal viewpoint, the surgeon and his team that gave me a triple bypass four years ago in April deserve that level of respect. :)	johcar (6283)
745115	2009-02-08 07:58:00	Good, the points you raise would all be incorporated into a formal QA procedure or sets of procedures. There was a lot of resistance initially at the Physics and Engineering Laboratory when the lab was being formally QA accredited. Business or manufacturing models could not be applied to medicine - or indeed few areas of the human services sector. The practice of medicine is not mechanical or even scientific, in the end. Sure, it's based on science - but the practice itself is an art. Nor are peoples' bodies like machines - what applies for one person may not apply to another - each patient is different - this is why clinical experience means so much in medicine and is the reason why a consultant takes two minutes to take the same history that a registrar takes 45 minutes with. A problem with miscarriages of justice is that whilst the miscarriage seems evident to the majority of the population, the "establishment" always seem reluctant to concede they could have been wrong:stare: "Sept 30 2006, Theodore Dalrymple comments on the Peter Ellis case. Dalrymple concluded about the Peter Ellis sexual abuse affair, that "a New Zealand court has given credence to accusations that even the Spanish Inquisition might have found preposterous." So cases like this presumably would not be included in your 1-3 % ?? I think the system failed Peter Ellis.	Deane F (8204)
745116	2009-02-08 08:00:00	Besides the fact that estimates don't mean much if you happened to be part of that 1 to 3% you would not be a happy chappy. Quite right. For that 1 - 3% the failure rate is 100%.	Deane F (8204)
745117	2009-02-08 08:27:00	Business or manufacturing models could not be applied to medicine - or indeed few areas of the human services sector . The practice of medicine is not mechanical or even scientific, in the end . Sure, it's based on science - but the practice itself is an art . Nor are peoples' bodies like machines - what applies for one person may not apply to another - each patient is different - this is why clinical experience means so much in medicine and is the reason why a consultant takes two minutes to take the same history that a registrar takes 45 minutes with . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I'm not suggesting that for one moment . The principles of QA apply to all disciplines including the medical practice even though they did indeed originate in the mechanical field . The example I quoted was an example of the initial resistance by professionals to being audited and who thought they were above such things . (such as Green and Bottrill) A very personal example of lack of QA at the local hospital . . . . . a close family member had gall stones a few years ago, and was also diagnosed with cancer of the pancreas . Put under the care of a local hospice, then we wondered why she began to get better . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Then without any apology or explanation, a bald statement that she had been misdiagnosed and that she was ok . QA procedures would have ensured some cross checking of the diagnosis .	Terry Porritt (14)
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