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Thread ID: 99251	2009-04-25 00:54:00	Lest We Forget	--Wolf-- (128)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
768314	2009-04-26 06:42:00	I see your point, but to say they died pointlessly makes it exactly that. The thing is these guys died so we can have our own choices, make up our own minds, by remembering them, as men and woman who fought whether they had to or not, we are honouring them. We're not just remembering, we are saying thank you to them as well.	rob_on_guitar (4196)
768315	2009-04-26 07:12:00	Every year since I was a boy I have celebrated ANZAC Day. I have attended several dawn parades and I have immense respect for the bravery of the men who climbed out of the trenches in the face of almost certain death - knowing that their bodies, like those of their comrades, would be left on the ground to rot and bloat for days on end until they turned black. Every year since I was a boy I have seen the documentaries that air at this time of year about the ANZACs and the Gallipoli Campaign - and after a while, after seeing so many times the historical accounts of the immense stupidity and incompetence of the commanders - I got angry. I got angry because they died so unnecessarily and so pointlessly. To me, this anger is what honours their memory the most. To simply remember, without asking the questions about why and how, is in my opinion an empty and a lifeless remembrance. I think the other sides (Turks, Germans etc) ordered their brave young men to charge across open ground against well entrenched machine guns. Perhaps we should remember all the men and women who died, whichever side they were on. Ken	kenj (9738)
768316	2009-04-26 08:09:00	I think the other sides (Turks, Germans etc) ordered their brave young men to charge across open ground against well entrenched machine guns. Perhaps we should remember all the men and women who died, whichever side they were on. KenGood point :thumbs:	Myth (110)
768317	2009-04-26 14:04:00	The service of one's country in time of war is a duty of citizenship by participants on both sides of a conflict, that is accepted by young men of military age, some willingly as volunteers and many more less willingly as conscipts. Those who volunteer with gung-ho enthusiasm do so more out of ignorance and false bravado, than as informed adults making a considered choice, although many who volunteered were under no illusion of what to expect. During National Service, I can remember the words of one of our SNCO infantry warfare instructors who was a veteran of WW2 and Korea, saying anyone who had experienced an intense infantry firefight would not look forward to repeating the experience, unless they were either mad or psyhcopathic. My father served in Bomber Command in WW2, and although he spoke very little about it, he told me, that bomber operations were marked by constant fear once one was over enemy teritory, along with discomfit and cold intersperced with moments of stark terror in the vicinity of the target area or when the formation was set upon by night fighters. They were expected to control their fear, work as an effective crew and carry out their mission. Bomber Command lost more aircrew in WW2 than the Army lost officers in WW1, and with the casualty rates it was not a question of it won't happen to me, but when is it going to happen? tonight! The men who served in the Merchant Navy suffered serious losses in the Battle of the Atlantic, the Malta Convoys and the Artic Convoys. After the war I got to know a former sea captain with the BI Company, John Cherry, he had 5 ships sunk under him, 3 by torpedos,1 by bombing and one by a mine, and in two of the sinkings there were less than a dozen survivors. Stuart Robinson of Auckland was a typical example of a Kiwi war veteran. and one of the "lucky " ones - he finished in the upper sixth in 1938,there were 19 boys in his class. He served in the desert campaign and Italy with XIX Armoured - in 1945 he and one other were the only survivors of his class of 19. The point I would make is that WW2 saw young men from varied walks of life and social backgrounds rise to the moment and do their duty by their country - courage is controlling one's natural fear and doing one's duty - I don't believe the message so frequently read out at memorial services that they willingly sacrificed their lives - they didn't. There are lost generations who could have contributed so much if they had not been caught up in the killing machine of war. I served 22 years in the Royal Air Force and the RNZAF, and I can only give thanks that my generation did not have to fight a world war as my father's and grandfather's had to. Should we get involved in Armed struggles such as Afghanistan - yes we should, we cannot turn our backs on evil - For Evil to prevail all that is necessary is for good men to do nothing.	KenESmith (6287)
768318	2009-04-26 15:11:00	Should we get involved in Armed struggles such as Afghanistan - yes we should, we cannot turn our backs on evil - Afghanistan is not our war - we are not threatened by them and our foreign policy gives us no reason whatsoever to send personnel or material to that country. Civilian casualties outnumber military casualties and have done so in every major conflict that the US has been involved in since WWII. But we turn our backs on this evil. For Evil to prevail all that is necessary is for good men to do nothing. "Governments like it that way. They want their people to see war as a drama of opposites, good and evil, them and 'us', victory or defeat. But war is primarily not about victory or defeat but about death and the infliction of death. It represents the total failure of the human spirit." From the introduction to "The Great War for Civilisation - The Conquest of The Middle East" by Robert Fisk.	Deane F (8204)
768319	2009-04-26 20:06:00	As an amateur historian, I tend to agree with PCtek in that we never seem to learn our lessons from history. Those young guys did go off on what they thought was their patriotic duty and for a bit of adventure. We must all remember their sacrifice. I am very pleased that more and more young people attend Anzac day. If countries are weak then others will try to take them over. Eg the recent genocides in the Balkans and Rwanada.	Digby (677)
768320	2009-04-26 22:23:00	Afghanistan is the Wests war, we either kill terrorists in Afghanistan or they will kill us at home with bombs. Examples London and Madrid. New Zealand soldiers in Afghanistan (SAS) bowling over terrorists is just as a good feat of arms as knocking down japs and germans was in WW2. Some SAS will get killed and we will remember them on ANZAC day for saving civilization.	prefect (6291)
768321	2009-04-26 22:35:00	Can you say "jingoism"?	Deane F (8204)
768322	2009-04-26 23:08:00	So when do we confront militant Islamist jihad? Do we conveniently turn the other way until they start to commit terrorist outrages on our soil, or that of our friends? or are we smart and per-empt that?	KenESmith (6287)
768323	2009-04-26 23:16:00	I would go for the pre empt option as well ken, just hope Key shows some strength and sends some troops there.	prefect (6291)
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