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Thread ID: 99803	2009-05-15 08:09:00	Acupuncture and Placebo Effect	Twelvevolts (5457)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
774175	2009-05-16 08:38:00	Well, not exactly. If you believe in something, it certainly helps psychologically; that applies to whatever you are doing and of course, includes western medicine. It is proven that Chinese acupuncture works if it is applied correctly by a trained professional. I really have my doubts that those practitioners in NZ are qualified acupuncturists professionals. They are here just to make a living:D. Similarly, there are many medical professionals here who totally have no professional ethics - there goal is to make as much money as they could, in short: very greedy. It is not proven at all, in fact all the research I can see on the net strongly suggests it doesn't work, well that is the insertion of needles itself does nothing. The interesting point I think is what impact believing it works has on at least feeling better, and it seems that indeed that does have some impact. The difference with "western"" medicine is it is based on science, acupuncture is pseudo-science, but yes the Placebo effect can still apply to "western"" medicine.	Twelvevolts (5457)
774176	2009-05-16 08:49:00	Science is like a religion to some people, who think it is the ultimate method for deciding what to do or what to think. But it is just a method, the results of which are determined to be right or wrong based on a consensus of experts who control peer review publications - experts whose own expertise was determined by what they themselves published. People who depart from the consensus of thought are described as unscientific. Science gave us chemotherapy. And psychiatry. And a few other delights of Western medicine which hardly work - if at all. What part of chemptherapy and psychiatry were you thinking of in terms of your barely work statement? Chemotherapy saves the lives of a hell of a lot of people, it is dangerous nonsense to suggest it hardly works, but of course it can't work all the time, especially if people seek help late because they are trying nonsense "alternative" remedies first. As for psychiatry, hell of a huge subject, your statement is akin to saying religion doesn't work. What particularly are you saying doesn't work?	Twelvevolts (5457)
774177	2009-05-16 09:02:00	Not all medicine works and some does. Try swallowing a suppository for example. ACC does, in fact, pay for acupuncture in New Zealand. I know this because I went to a physio after breaking a thumb and received acupuncture when I did not need it in my opinion. Having said that, I would think that any treatment that makes you feel better is worthwile trying. I went to a Chinese herbalist some years ago in Auckland. Came out with less cash and the results did not achieve the desired result.	Sweep (90)
774178	2009-05-16 11:06:00	What part of chemptherapy and psychiatry were you thinking of in terms of your barely work statement? Chemotherapy saves the lives of a hell of a lot of people, it is dangerous nonsense to suggest it hardly works, Have you looked into the five and ten year survival rates for some of the cancer chemos? I have. Wasn't much impressed and didn't seem worth it to me for all the suffering it added to the already suffering-addled illness I watched the person die from. As for psychiatry, hell of a huge subject, your statement is akin to saying religion doesn't work. What particularly are you saying doesn't work? Psychiatry isn't medicine for a start. As Ronnie Laing rightly pointed out in the late '60s (and he was a psychiatrist), it's the only branch of medicine which treats people on the basis of conduct alone, the only branch of medicine which both decides capacity to give consent and enforces treatment, and the only branch of medicine which imprisons people - on the basis of conduct alone. Psychiatry bears more resemblance to politics than it does to medicine. As for scientific basis, you only have to scratch the surface of psychiatric literature to find statements such as, "serotonin is thought to be responsible for mood..." and other vague assertions. Much of the action of most psychiatric medications is unclear and mostly unknown - they have arrived at the crude chemical approach to treatment through serendipity and trial and error. Somebody said once that psychiatry as a field is about 100 or so years old and is at the same stage that surgery was when it was practiced by barbers. And then there's the colourful history of the DSM....	Deane F (8204)
774179	2009-05-16 11:54:00	Some people will take all the drugs their doctor says; this is considered "usual" treatment, only to suffer the side effects with no relief at all. If people can get relief with a placebo treatment, without knowing how it works I say good for them. I use plenty of things that I have no idea how they work	Rob99 (151)
774180	2009-07-03 22:16:00	I see this morning in the Dom that the medical profession is admitting prescribing pills that don't do anything other than potentially have a pacebo effect . This alternative medicine stuff must be getting contagious . Tricky one ethically though to be fooling your patient even if might be for their own good . Perhaps that should be left to the fringe people, after all there are plenty of people wanting to believe in iridology, acupuncture, homoeopathy and the like, why not leave it to the unprofessionals . I just saw a web site by the New Zealand College of Chriropractic, reading that you could be convinced it was some genuine medical procedure, rather than the quackery it is, with sometimes dangerous consequences . Maybe those guys should take up sticking needles in people and attending swine flu parties, they could call it holistic medicine or something similar .	Twelvevolts (5457)
774181	2009-07-03 22:27:00	My word, how fortunate we are to have such wise observations. And, since it is researched on the internet, it MUST be true. A doctors job, by and large, seems to consist of comforting people while nature heals them. The real skill and pleasure of the practice is taking the money off sick people.	R2x1 (4628)
774182	2009-07-03 22:45:00	My word, how fortunate we are to have such wise observations. And, since it is researched on the internet, it MUST be true. A doctors job, by and large, seems to consist of comforting people while nature heals them. The real skill and pleasure of the practice is taking the money off sick people. There's a sucker born every minute - you're just more likely to have more money taken off you by the alternative crowd for no benefit. Remember psychic surgery?? I don't begrudge people seeing whoever they like, people will still go and get their tea leaves read even today, doesn't mean the tea actually has any predictive power. However as the book Faith Healers by James Randi so clearly showed, a lot of con man are involved in taking money off people for various types of healing and alternative medicine. Chriropractors I suspect are in the category that they believe what they are doing works, I'm not suggesting they are con men in the way that many of the faith healers described by Randi clearly are.	Twelvevolts (5457)
774183	2009-07-03 23:03:00	My word, how fortunate we are to have such wise observations. And, since it is researched on the internet, it MUST be true. A doctors job, by and large, seems to consist of comforting people while nature heals them. The real skill and pleasure of the practice is taking the money off sick people. Not sure how that brilliant theory works in the case of heart transplants,or anti biotics when used to remove various bugs from our bods.	Cicero (40)
774184	2009-07-03 23:18:00	ha ha, don't do anything at all or better still, don't eat or drink anything; most of the foods are either chemically treated or biologically modified. Even the 'pure' water (is there anything 'pure' water available, at all?) are full of chemicals. Just let nature takes its course. :D:D	bk T (215)
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