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Thread ID: 100702	2009-06-17 22:22:00	"Give Maori free access to uni"	barmypom (6048)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
783075	2009-06-18 03:09:00	Till today I thought Pita Sharples was a good dude, now I think he is a plonker.	prefect (6291)
783076	2009-06-18 03:39:00	Shock the Maoris and say yes to this policy, set them up to fail. Employers would then treat all Maoris with any tertiary qualification like a mad Irishman with a grenade sans the pin. Imagine Maoris professionals like doc or dentist working on you with a degree from university that was forced to let them enter. There's a big difference between entry and achievement. While I disagree with Dr Sharples' idea, entry merely means that they can get into university courses - whether they meet the standards to actually pass the courses and attain a degree is another story. As it is, there are far too many people getting into university courses (NCEA/UE is a joke), and dropping out after 1 or 2 years because they couldn't cope. NZ needs to move away from the culture that you "must" go to university to be successful. There are plenty of people who are hugely successful running their own businesses, or who have gained trade skills through apprenticeships etc. In schools, we need to be encouraging kids to choose the most appropriate option for them - not funnelling them into universities, where they waste $30k and 3 years of their life, before abandoning their degree and doing something else. Universities are academic institutions - not everyone suits that form of learning, and that's why many students would be better off at a polytech, wananga, or doing an apprenticeship or other trade training. I'm a strong advocate of making universities hard to get into - that way you only get people who 1) are motivated to work hard and succeed, 2) are suited to the "university" way of learning, and 3) actually want to do something with their degree, rather than simply go to university because all their mates are. The goal shouldn't be getting more Maori into universities, rather it should be stopping some others who shouldn't be there, from getting in in the first place, wasting a couple of years of their lives, tens of thousands of dollars, and skewing the statistics in a negative way. This is going to show my age a little bit, but in the past I have taught at a university, and have seen far too many students who simply shouldn't be there - from a range of ethnic backgrounds. There were many who I asked "why did you choose to do this degree/major", and their response was "I don't know" - they genuinely didn't know why they took the course, what they wanted to learn, and what they wanted to do once they finished the degree. One of the 1st year courses (which I didn't teach, but was aware of) had a dropout rate of around 50% - people came into the course thinking the degree would be easy, and got the shock of their lives when they realised that they actually had to put in time and effort to pass the course. Many of those students transferred to an "easier" degree, or dropped out of university altogether. On a more positive note, among the students I have taught, there have been some (a very small number) from Maori or Polynesian backgrounds, and they are bright, motivated, hard working students. They had the support of their family, peers (there was a mentoring programme where high achieving Maori & Pacific Island students would help guide and advise their peers), and put in the effort and did well. People who should be going to university, and have the skills to cope with university degrees, are already there - there's no need to make it a free for all in the name of politics.	somebody (208)
783077	2009-06-18 03:51:00	(snip) I'm a strong advocate of making universities hard to get into - that way you only get people who 1) are motivated to work hard and succeed, 2) are suited to the "university" way of learning, and 3) actually want to do something with their degree, rather than simply go to university because all their mates are. (snip) Yes, I totally agree with you here. Out of curiosity, what did you teach?	Bozo (8540)
783078	2009-06-18 04:04:00	NZ needs to move away from the culture that you "must" go to university to be successful. Universities are academic institutions - not everyone suits that form of learning, and that's why many students would be better off at a polytech have seen far too many students who who I asked "why did you choose to do this degree/major", and their response was "I don't know" 1)Yes. Its become too fashionable for every stupid little thing to need a qualification. Thats because of funding, all these places holding their hand out to teach crap. 2)Uh, snobbery - a Polytech is an academic institution too. My area of work was far better for quals at Polytech than UNi for instance. 3)Because some people are lucky enough to be passionate about a line of work and a lot haven't a clue what they might like. And there's no way most can sit around thinking about it first or trying something first because of point 1. When I left school computers were new and I had never even seen one never mind used one, so I had no idea I might even like them. Until much later.	pctek (84)
783079	2009-06-18 04:23:00	2)Uh, snobbery - a Polytech is an academic institution too. My area of work was far better for quals at Polytech than UNi for instance. 3)Because some people are lucky enough to be passionate about a line of work and a lot haven't a clue what they might like. And there's no way most can sit around thinking about it first or trying something first because of point 1. When I left school computers were new and I had never even seen one never mind used one, so I had no idea I might even like them. Until much later. 2) Yes you're right - polytechs are more practitioner-oriented, and support a more hands-on approach to learning, while universities are a lot more 'academic' and more traditional in their learning/teaching styles. 3) I should have qualified that comment a bit better - it is perfectly fine for people to be unsure of what they want to do, and to try a few different things - spending 3 years and tens of thousands of dollars trying one thing is another story. The reason I made that comment was because there were students I spoke to, who in the final semester of their degree programme (noting that they already had 2 and a half years of exposure to the subject at that point), had no idea what they wanted to do next - i.e. they still weren't sure if the field was what they wanted to get into. Getting a degree a very expensive way of finding out whether you like something. Then there's the guy who actually wanted to be a builder, but was getting a degree so he could get permanent residency in NZ (although that's another debate altogether).	somebody (208)
783080	2009-06-18 04:30:00	Maori Affairs and Associate Education Minister Pita Sharples says he wants Maori to have free access to universities but only if they pass a course showing they have reached required standards. .... "It's just providing entry for people to attend a student learning centre where they can reach the standard to do a degree." From: www.stuff.co.nz These comments are interesting - I fail to see how Dr Sharples' proposal differs from what's already in place now. Many universities already offer 6-12 month "preparation" courses to students who want to study, but can't get in because they don't meet the entrance criteria. They are taught skills such as essay-writing, basic computer skills, and so on, to bring them up to the same level as others entering the university system.	somebody (208)
783081	2009-06-18 04:35:00	Its not fair on say my kids who have to work hard at school and the maoris in their class can goof off and then get preferential treatment later on sucks. But lets think laterally here by letting them get away with it but dont give them any jobs when they leave university.	prefect (6291)
783082	2009-06-18 05:52:00	Is this another form of "RACISM" I am so ashamed of you! You need to ask such a question? OF COURSE IT IS RACISM!!!!! But then, of course, you must realise that there are only two races in this country - maori and everyone else . I still find it difficult to understand why there was ever a department of maori affairs . I don't recall ever hearing of the department of European affairs . That sort of racism has been going on for many decades . If something is done that might be of benefit to maori alone, that is not considered racism but if something is envisaged that will benefit everyone except maori, that is racist . Does anyone have any idea why? You may recall the Australian government taking away aboriginal children from their parents . The idea, I understand, was to break the cycle of non-achieving and drunkeness . These children became known as the "Lost Generation . " I'm certain that you have all heard that story . I do believe that the Australian government had the right idea but, of course, that was not the way to go about it . I do not have any ideas either apart from the very obvious fact that both the parents and the children need to be educated . If your Mum and Dad have a fair amount of education they will usually encourage you to become educated and obtain a good job, usually with a fair degree of success . The cycle continues . And as we have seen, the opposite cycle continues just as well .	Roscoe (6288)
783083	2009-06-18 06:27:00	They need to nip over to Zimbabwe to see what disadvantage means.	Cicero (40)
783084	2009-06-18 06:59:00	Total genocide of one complete generation would do it. Why should they get special treatment, it's not like someone is forcing them to fail at school. Instead of letting them get big student loans which they won't be able to pay back when they drop out use the money to sort out why they are failing at school. I do agree that there are far too many degrees these days. I don't have one I have a double trade and advanced trade cost me 5 years of earning crap money but has been so worth it. They want degrees because they think you have to have one to earn the big dollars. They are creating their own Apartheid here	gary67 (56)
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