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Thread ID: 102599	2009-08-25 10:48:00	No Sky For This Guy.	Hitech (9024)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
804208	2009-08-26 05:07:00	Under a Labour Government, maybe. Surely not under the Nats. Well, They didn't manage to make it happen under Labour, and I can't read the future, and being so far removed the corridors of power that I'm merely repeating what those in the H&S industry have told me.....	Metla (12)
804209	2009-08-26 05:23:00	i guess it comes down to whether the law requires aerial installers to wear safety harnesses when installing aerials on the roof, and i don't think there is a law.	lance4k (4644)
804210	2009-08-26 05:35:00	That guideline for working at heights is 3m before putting in controls, the law under the H&S act is that steps must be taken to provide a safe place of work, and this means managing hazards. If people are getting killed then its pretty clear that controls aren't in place or aren't sufficient. If you look at the stats the vast majority of people killed in falls at work were killed by falling less then 3m, This is why action in this area is happening. But hey, If people want to get killed so Sky can make a profit then good for them, Lets all support a proven dangerous practise so big filthy rich companies can make more profit by squeezing the little guy.	Metla (12)
804211	2009-08-26 05:36:00	There is a law Lance. It's called the Health & Safety in Employment Act 1992, and it requires you and your employer (or contract principal) to take all practicable steps when at work to ensure the safety from any hazard of both yourself and any other person. YOU and your employer are expected to have identified, and know the steps required for each task you carry out, to be performed in a safe manner :)	Richard (739)
804212	2009-08-26 07:21:00	Yup, employees are required to know and adhere to their companies H+S policy. Not doing so is viewed as negligence.	pine-o-cleen (2955)
804213	2009-08-26 08:10:00	They will soon, thats what this case is all about . In the legislation their is scope to ignore using fall protection systems on work that is less then 3m (though the obligations under the H&S act in regards to hazard control counter this) and morons have been getting killed left right and centre on falls of less then 3m on a pretty constant basis . One bolt, One harness mount, 30 seconds . Better then death or a lifetime of disability . My son used to work for City Aerials for a number of years . AFAIK it was not usual practice for them to wear safety harness's when installing on private houses . He used to tell some scary stories of high, steep pitched wet roofs, and high winds, cracking concrete tiles when walking over them etc :) I remember asking him about safety harnesses once, I can't remember what he replied . . . . . . . . . They were virtually contractors, buying their own vans, ladders, tools, fittings, signal strength meters etc, and were paid a fixed price for an installation . There was very little money in it . Metla makes it sound easy, but I dont know how feasible or acceptable it is to fit various anchor points into peoples roofs, chimneys, or barge boards . If it became mandatory then who pays? I expect we will hear more during the court cases, it's the City Aerials case that will be of more interest than the Sky one, I'd have thought . It is easy, Hell, setting up a rope takes less then 5 minutes, Figure 8 knot around an anchor (a van works well enough) Sling it over the roof, Climb ladder, attach ripe grab to rope . Attaching a single anchor point requires one bolt, And can also be installed in just a few minutes . bearing in mind the anchor is only needed within 2m of a drop, so you don't need them all over the roof, Just mount one near where the install is going to take place and restrain yourself with an adjustable lanyard . You can also get an anchor that just sits over the apex of the roof, lay your rope from that point down to the work position, attach rope grab and away you go, took less then a minute . Who pays?, who the hell pays when your dead? And its already mandatory, You have to manage risks, falling off a roof is a risk, People die from it every year . This court case and any others are to drive the point into the industry that ignores their obligations . intersting point . terry is quite right that there is no $$$ in it, assuming you even get paid ! there are plenty of ex installers that are owed money . i'm not sure what the current rules are but you have to remeber that 99% of the industry is one man bands . AFAIK as far as OSH is concern rules don't apply to one self employed, only to those that are employed . was talking about this with an ex tech today . he went through this with them many years ago . the simple problem is what do you attach the harness to? you can't go putting holes in customers roofs . your taking about guys who skimp on bolt sizes to save a few cents, they are not going to leave $20 worth of anchor bolts all over the roof . you also have to remember you have to get up there to install the anchor points or lay rope etc etc . so you have allready walked up there with no harness on, which makes it all pointless . i understand many years ago they where going to make all roof work require two people . however the industry simply said "we will go bust, simply because customers will not pay for two people" . the rule never came into effect . i've done some hell jobs on some nasty roofs . some i wonder how the hell i even got up there . but as long as you think its dangerous then its not to bad . its the ones you think are easy is when something happens . end of the day if customers are willing to pay for it then guys will get the gear and use it . but in an industry where 70% of the work is done by others outside of the industry which leave minimal market for the pro's, i simply do not see any bothering with the extra cost . as far as sky goes it will be interesting . i dealt with a lot of guys who i do not thinkr even saw let alone had sky's install manuals . sky tech training was really poor . with all the scraps, who was ripping who off, high staff turn over, its no wonder training was minimal . this court case may have a good effect of getting decent training put in . (granted i'm not up with the play these days so it may have improved) .	tweak'e (69)
804214	2009-08-26 09:18:00	Tweak'e, I'm amazed you wrote that. But if thats indicative of the level of competency in the trade I'm not surprised people are getting hurt. I was going to counter it point by point but seriously, Its just ignorant to the point of being ridicules. All of it. You guys need to take some responsibility for your own skill sets and methods. And get some height training.Up-skilling is good. I've done a lot of real-world height work over the years with and with controls,and I wouldn't let you on a site based on what you have written.	Metla (12)
804215	2009-08-26 09:55:00	thats hows its been done for far longer than i've ever worked. i do not know of many that have got hurt. worse case was one guy i worked with who had fallen off 3 times in 3 years. why he didn't quit beats me. frankly i used to see roofers, chippies, plumbers all do far worse than what we ever did. one day i watched a plumber walk along the face of 40 degree roof in jandles on a slippery slade roof, that left me speechless. was told of one that a roofer had walked on a 45-55 degree tile roof (those old soft tiles). i had refused to even look at walking on it but apparently the guy climbed it and inspected it. there is a HUGE amount of scary dumb things that trades do at heights. aerial industry imho is very minor and generally fairly safe in comparison. mayby the others have evolved and the aerial industry hasn't ? worse thing is proberly the few people that actually work for a company. the company can put huge pressure on them to get the job done. where as most of the self employed would simply walk away from the very risky jobs. but as you say most accidents are at under 3m. had a sparky (i think) who died from falling from 3 rungs up the ladder at a house next to where i had been working. i've been out of the industry for a long time, i don't know what the norm is now. i shall ask a mate. but don't forget, the aerial industry is not a high risk industry. my ACC levy was less than a mate who installed alarms. go fiqure.	tweak'e (69)
804216	2009-08-26 10:07:00	Talk about falling from heights ex colleague in the UK fell off a saw stool and was killed. I have and always will have a serious view for working at heights and not only since I'm a caver and climber. I have spent 25 years so far on building sites and the stuff I have seen in NZ makes me go green it's scary. I changed trade because it's so scary. I now work as a joiner instead of as a carpenter. :horrified I'm with Metla all the way on this one, good on ya mate for standing up to be counted. :2cents:	gary67 (56)
804217	2009-08-26 10:20:00	I can see a problem where the anchorage on roofs aren't in properly and pulls out out which is worse than not having a harness on at all. How do you anchor to a tiled roof like mine with only 3" x 2" framing **** radiata under the tiles	prefect (6291)
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