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Thread ID: 106732	2010-01-21 04:46:00	3 Strikes: Will it reduce crime?	lance4k (4644)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
850453	2010-01-24 03:49:00	The part that gets me is that legislation appears to be drafted but the New Zealand public don't get to see it. So all that happens is we get speculation about what the law may do ( or not do ) as the case may be as I pointed out in post 3. A Copernic search for three strikes legislation only brings up the amended copyright Section 92A. So where is the actual draft law we are talking about here? I think this is it: www.legislation.govt.nz I found it from here: www.parliament.nz You will note that submissions are due by 24 April. 2009 that is, so it has been around a while.	John H (8)
850454	2010-01-24 04:35:00	Thanks muchly for that but then I was not searching for Amendments to current Acts and all this bill does is to amend two current Acts. I have downloaded the whole draft for later perusal and I note that the Judges will still have an out as mentioned in the intent statement which is below. It may have been better for me not to use the popular by media " three strikes " term so that is clearly my fault. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Explanatory note General policy statement The purpose of the Bill is to create a three stage regime of increasing consequences for the worst repeat violent offenders. The Bill is specifically targeted at offenders who show contempt for the court system and the safety of others by continuing to offend despite long prison sentences and judicial warnings. This regime is intended to improve public safety by incapacitating these offenders for longer periods. It is also intended to increase the confidence of victims and the public in the justice system through truth in sentencing (no parole for certain offenders) and longer sentences (stage 3 of the regime). An offender qualifies for each stage if he or she receives a determinate sentence of imprisonment of five years or more, life imprisonment or preventive detention (a qualifying sentence) for a specified serious violent offence. The three stages are as follows: stage 1: An offender incurs a recorded first warning when he or she receives a first qualifying sentence for a serious violent offence committed after he or she turns 18: stage 2: An offender incurs a recorded final warning when he or she receives a further qualifying sentence (other than life imprisonment for murder) for a serious violent offence committed after receiving the first warning. If the offender receives a determinate sentence, the court must also order that the offender serve the sentence without parole: stage 3: An offender receives a life sentence if he or she commits a further serious violent offence after receiving a final warning, and the court would otherwise have imposed a further qualifying sentence (other than life imprisonment for murder) for that offence. The court must impose a minimum non-parole period of 25 years on the life sentence unless satisfied that it would be manifestly unjust to do so (in which case it must impose a lesser non-parole period). If the offender receives a sentence of life imprisonment for murder at stage 2 or 3, the court must order that the offender serve the life sentence without parole, unless that would be manifestly unjust. The Bill also provides the courts with the option of sentencing an offender to life without parole in the worst cases of murder. As with the regime for repeat offenders, this is intended to improve public safety through incapacitation, and the confidence of victims and the public in the justice system through truth in sentencing. The orders requiring offenders to serve their sentences without parole will ensure that victims and their families do not have to worry about attending frequent parole hearings, or that the offender may be released on parole. An offender serving a life sentence without parole will only be eligible for release on compassionate grounds. Similarly, an offender serving a determinate sentence without parole will only be eligible for release before the end of his or her sentence on compassionate grounds. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now if we look at the above a person has to be over 18 before Stage 1 comes into effect in any event. Stage 3 can be dispensed with if it is "manifestly unjust" Also we can release these people on "compassionate grounds" apparently. So to lance4k I would say that the amendments will not reduce crime one iota because the really, really bad people quite frankly appear incorrigible and without a conscience or remorse. Mostly the "sorry" society gets is they are sorry they were caught.	Sweep (90)
850455	2010-01-24 04:45:00	Perhaps not - but if Metla had had a three strikes policy put on him he'd have been banned for life while I was still on two strikes. So I have been banned in the past but it is hardly a violent offence anyway.	Sweep (90)
850456	2010-01-24 04:54:00	Thanks muchly for that but then I was not searching for Amendments to current Acts and all this bill does is to amend two current Acts. (snip) It is quite common to create new legislation this way, so you really do need to search for bills that way. I would guess that given the ghastly amount of legislation already on the statute books covering a vast range of topics, that most new legislation is amending legislation like this. I actually started looking for an amendment to the Criminal Justice Act for a start, but no go - oddly enough, this bill was actually easier to find than most because it has an appropriate name. Once I couldn't find anything in what I thought would be the obvious places, I looked for a bill with sentencing in the title! Who would have thought the pollies would have given a sensible name to a bill...??? Especially with the idiots from Act and National being involved.	John H (8)
850457	2010-01-24 05:08:00	It is quite common to create new legislation this way, so you really do need to search for bills that way. I would guess that given the ghastly amount of legislation already on the statute books covering a vast range of topics, that most new legislation is amending legislation like this. I actually started looking for an amendment to the Criminal Justice Act for a start, but no go - oddly enough, this bill was actually easier to find than most because it has an appropriate name. Once I couldn't find anything in what I thought would be the obvious places, I looked for a bill with sentencing in the title! Who would have thought the pollies would have given a sensible name to a bill...??? Especially with the idiots from Act and National being involved. The whole bill is only a sop to ACT in any event.	Sweep (90)
850458	2010-01-24 07:02:00	Well - I waited for this to shake out by youse guys - and it looks like there's some really good reasoning - along with the rather arcane too . The Three Strikes Law has been in effect in California for a while now, and it seems to be working . There are a few caveats though . The "Strikes" must be for felonies - not just minor traffic skirmishes and "loud party " calls to the police . What has happened here is that a person gets a big felony - drug trafficking comes to mind - and they get a light or no prison term . Then the second is a little more severe, and the third is full-time lock up with no possible parole . That's all well and good, but it has problems . A teenager will get his record sealed at the age of majority, and they get a fresh start . He has already learned who his friends are and where and how to get drugs and sell them for a profit to the cartels, etc . This teenager-now-adult will in this case continue a nefarious life of drug trafficking - knowing the first ADULT bust is a minor violation and possible even gets "time-served" as a sentence and is back on the streets right after the gavel hits the desk . That's NUMBER 1 The drug suppliers see that they have a first-timer and they provide him an unlimited amount of drugs to sell for them and the guy can get away with this for quite a while - making money and not paying taxes, etc . They provide him security and a certain amount of happiness in his chosen profession . The suppliers are happy and he is just more careful now - but he eventually gets caught a second time . Now - he gets a stiffer penalty and perhaps some real serious prison time for his activities - depending on the circumstances of his new arrest . . That's NUMBER 2 Whilst he's this time in the slammer, he gets coached by and makes new, more powerful friends who will provide him safety in the general population - he's getting a "family" to watch for him . He also has made a lot of money and the drug suppliers know it and now give him a retirement package that makes sure he doesn't have to work selling drugs for a living when he gets out . Part of the package is a "Non-Competition" rule, and "Off-Limits" to other, competitive gangs and lords . There may not be a NUMBER 3 - since he's done his PRISON TIME 1&2 - and cannot afford to get sent away for life now, so he "retires" and gets a nice fat retirement paycheck (if he paid attention to his proctors in prison the first time and saved some for a rainy day) and has a whole lot of great friends who will protect him and his immediate family for the rest of their lives too . All the "Three-Strikes Law" has done is make people a lot more careful and they know when to quit . I'm not talking about the street thug who when he steals that loaf of bread to feed his wife/kids and has a Two-Count on his head, then goes away for life . Sure there are inadequacies in it, but generally it thins the gene pool a little and keeps some of the recidivist members off the streets . Now - if ONLY Arnie will keep them in the hoosegow, since he's said that he'll release the "least dangerous" 'cause there ain't no money left in the Cal-ee-fornya pocketbook to feed/house and entertain them .	SurferJoe46 (51)
850459	2010-01-24 07:07:00	People will always play the system, and plenty of criminals have smarts, which they use to exploit the stupids, Happens all across society.	Metla (12)
850460	2010-01-24 07:21:00	Well - I waited for this to shake out by youse guys - and it looks like there's some really good reasoning - along with the rather arcane too . The Three Strikes Law has been in effect in California for a while now, and it seems to be working . There are a few caveats though . The "Strikes" must be for felonies - not just minor traffic skirmishes and "loud party " calls to the police . What has happened here is that a person gets a big felony - drug trafficking comes to mind - and they get a light or no prison term . Then the second is a little more severe, and the third is full-time lock up with no possible parole . That's all well and good, but it has problems . A teenager will get his record sealed at the age of majority, and they get a fresh start . He has already learned who his friends are and where and how to get drugs and sell them for a profit to the cartels, etc . This teenager-now-adult will in this case continue a nefarious life of drug trafficking - knowing the first ADULT bust is a minor violation and possible even gets "time-served" as a sentence and is back on the streets right after the gavel hits the desk . That's NUMBER 1 The drug suppliers see that they have a first-timer and they provide him an unlimited amount of drugs to sell for them and the guy can get away with this for quite a while - making money and not paying taxes, etc . They provide him security and a certain amount of happiness in his chosen profession . The suppliers are happy and he is just more careful now - but he eventually gets caught a second time . Now - he gets a stiffer penalty and perhaps some real serious prison time for his activities - depending on the circumstances of his new arrest . . That's NUMBER 2 Whilst he's this time in the slammer, he gets coached by and makes new, more powerful friends who will provide him safety in the general population - he's getting a "family" to watch for him . He also has made a lot of money and the drug suppliers know it and now give him a retirement package that makes sure he doesn't have to work selling drugs for a living when he gets out . Part of the package is a "Non-Competition" rule, and "Off-Limits" to other, competitive gangs and lords . There may not be a NUMBER 3 - since he's done his PRISON TIME 1&2 - and cannot afford to get sent away for life now, so he "retires" and gets a nice fat retirement paycheck (if he paid attention to his proctors in prison the first time and saved some for a rainy day) and has a whole lot of great friends who will protect him and his immediate family for the rest of their lives too . All the "Three-Strikes Law" has done is make people a lot more careful and they know when to quit . I'm not talking about the street thug who when he steals that loaf of bread to feed his wife/kids and has a Two-Count on his head, then goes away for life . Sure there are inadequacies in it, but generally it thins the gene pool a little and keeps some of the recidivist members off the streets . Now - if ONLY Arnie will keep them in the hoosegow, since he's said that he'll release the "least dangerous" 'cause there ain't no money left in the Cal-ee-fornya pocketbook to feed/house and entertain them . Send them off to the colonies,oops they are already there . The Chinese method is the only answer,these people take up to much space .	Cicero (40)
850461	2010-01-24 10:02:00	We are winning, law and order is an election issue . Every little bit of anti crook legislation is winning the fight . The Sensible Sentencing Trust is getting plenty of press every time a idiot judge goes light on the crims . National and labor will be tripping over each other to prove they are the crime fighting party . The anti punishment camp of liberal lawyers and people like 12VDC and Deano are backing a losing horse . Liberalism was a nice try just like art deco it is dieing out . I think the police do their best I was impressed when they beat the **** (resisting arrest) out of two maoris who harassed my family a year ago . If I was anti-punishment I'd hardly have spent thirteen years of my life working in the Criminal Justice system (including inside prisons) so that people like you could denigrate all the work people do . And what planet have you been on - law and order has been an election issue for every election I've ever voted in and that is a fair few now . I've been a lot closer to it than you and recall one election when the "get tough" call was answered, all sentences increased but all parole periods were lessened, the public thought the Government got tough but the prisons got emptied . In the end it comes down to money, the country will go with the get tough message until they start to feel it in their pocket, then there will be efforts to reduce the prison muster . You can rant on and on about execution solving things, but even in the unlikely event it ever gets support in this country, you'll still be paying a lot to build new prisons . You guys are in fairy land if you think there is genuinely a political move to follow the Sensible Sentencing Trust policies beyond the currently proposed and pretty meaningless three strikes policy . Some of you even profess to not having read the proposed act, so you are being hoodwinked already .	Twelvevolts (5457)
850462	2010-01-24 10:07:00	People will always play the system, and plenty of criminals have smarts, which they use to exploit the stupids, Happens all across society. Change "criminals" to "politicians" and we'd have our first agreement in a long time, except of course we'd disagree over who the stupids are.	Twelvevolts (5457)
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