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Thread ID: 109596	2010-05-14 19:53:00	Navtej Singh-Police Blunder ?	wmoore (6009)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
884917	2010-05-14 19:53:00	From the Herald here (www.nzherald.co.nz)and here (www.nzherald.co.nz) From another news source (TGIF) 'For those of us who’ve been in the news business for a while, some stories keep turning up time and again over the decades. One of those is the inability of police and emer- gency services to respond quickly when rearms are involved and people are badly injured. Unlike US police forces, their New Zealand coun- terparts are far less inclined to put themselves in harm’s way to rescue injured civilians. Some may recall the police who stood helplessly by a few years back while a woman was stabbed to death literally in front of them, because they were unarmed. Those with longer memories will recall the Ara- moana massacre, where police insisted on contain- ing the gunman for 24 hours instead of –ying in an armoured vehicle to ferry medics into the area. It comes back to a non-confrontational “cordon and negotiate” policy, which may work well in most scenarios but is not so crash hot when people lie wounded and their lives are in the balance. It is entirely possible Navtej Singh may have survived if medical attention had been delivered swiftly, instead of nearly 40 minutes after the event. Assistant Police Commissioner Rob Pope, a man with a chequered record, insists that the respon- sibility for Singh’s death lies with the man who pulled the trigger. Perhaps, but I’d venture to sug- gest contributory negligence on behalf of the police force played a part as well. Had police done their job properly, it might only have been an attempted murder charge. The IPCA report found the response was like a Keystone Cops episode, with some officers wearing their body armour backwards because they didn’t know how to use it, and poor management of the operation. The police 111 communications system failed to deliver crucial information to operational commanders. Each police district needs a rapid response unit capable and brave enough to secure areas and allow medics in to the scene. Frankly, if it had been me at the scene, and the offenders had run off while the police played chicken, I think I would have just carried Singh to a car and driven him to a waiting ambulance. In hindsight, if police can’t protect the public, perhaps the public need to step in more.' I do tend to agree with the above piece. There always seems to be a lot of pussy footing around when it comes to firearms incidents (Like giving firearms to officers who don't have the correct training) What is needed is a Armed response team as they do in the UK. Each ART vehicle has four members. Fully trained and equipped. They use Speed, Aggression and Surprise elements to arrest the offenders. So Did police procedures cost this persons life ?	wmoore (6009)
884918	2010-05-14 20:09:00	Great... To the correspondent... give us your name and we will call you whenever there is a shooting. You can be our No.1 man, first through the door to all AOS callouts. I think there were problems all the same, but why does every bar steward and his brother have to dump on the police all the time. Do people think that they don't care in a situation like this. Remember 12 months ago in our fair city of Napier, when things went horribly wrong, because there were firearms in the hands of a retard. Lots of people were critical at that time but only those on the spot knew what risks there were. Ken	kenj (9738)
884919	2010-05-14 20:13:00	I'd hate to be a cop. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, Just let them get on with the job they're trained for...	johcar (6283)
884920	2010-05-14 20:21:00	I'd hate to be a cop. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, Just let them get on with the job they're trained for... Agree but do so called procedures get in the way of an officer using his own brain and common sense depending on the situation.	wmoore (6009)
884921	2010-05-14 21:48:00	Agree but do so called procedures get in the way of an officer using his own brain and common sense depending on the situation. Perhaps. But it has been my experience that so-called "common sense" isn't. Or what may appear to be common sense to you or me in any given situation, is not, with the benefit of hindsight. That's where the cops (or anyone in authority) get a raw deal, since their actions are being judged in the cold light of day, when the decisions that related to those actions were made in the heat of the moment using the best information available at the time. Where there's a 50:50 chance of making the wrong decision in a crisis situation, there is a more than 50:50 chance that someone will make the wrong choice - which is why procedures were invented. Unfortunately procedures and rules can't cater to every situation - which is where common sense comes in. (See my first point.)	johcar (6283)
884922	2010-05-14 21:56:00	I would have expected some Captain Chuck Upham procedure from the police. They are sworn to protect the citizens but they seem more focused on keeping themselves alive. I dont care what other people think, to do nothing while a person bleeds to death is unfathomable to me. Not interested in responding to any clown who thinks this way. There are some times when you need to go in guns blazing the scum south auckland crooks would have been toast to some boy scouts with .22s.	prefect (6291)
884923	2010-05-14 23:35:00	I would have expected some Captain Chuck Upham procedure from the police. They are sworn to protect the citizens but they seem more focused on keeping themselves alive. I dont care what other people think, to do nothing while a person bleeds to death is unfathomable to me. Not interested in responding to any clown who thinks this way. There are some times when you need to go in guns blazing the scum south auckland crooks would have been toast to some boy scouts with .22s. Agree 100%	paulw (1826)
884924	2010-05-15 02:33:00	I would have expected some Captain Chuck Upham procedure from the police. They are sworn to protect the citizens but they seem more focused on keeping themselves alive. I dont care what other people think, to do nothing while a person bleeds to death is unfathomable to me. Not interested in responding to any clown who thinks this way. There are some times when you need to go in guns blazing the scum south auckland crooks would have been toast to some boy scouts with .22s. Well said, sir. But if the cops are willing to let one of their own bleed to death for over 12 hours, do you think they would give a **** about civilians? They are a bunch of losers who were bullied as kids and want to act big by dishing out fines, that's about it. They are good for nothing else. Oh and they like to press charges against innocent people, such as people acting in self defense... Good for them. The main problem is the system is flawed and has been flawed for some time. Change won't be coming anytime soon.	Cato (6936)
884925	2010-05-15 04:22:00	What is needed is a Armed response team as they do in the UK. Each ART vehicle has four members. Fully trained and equipped. They use Speed, Aggression and Surprise elements to arrest the offenders. So Did police procedures cost this persons life ? they already do have such teams, called AOS. theres also another tactical team (not sure of the name) for major incidents. last resort is SAS. having been in one of these situations myself, AOS are always slow. 1/2 hour for them to get in there would be considered quick. what makes matters worse is the information they get given is not reliable, especially when offenders are known to call in and pretend to be the victim. now add the amateur 111 system (which i believe has improved a bit over the last few years) is not very good at dealing with people. you may remember the case when the 111 operator kept a guy on the phone while he bled to death while ambulance staff stood outside. i had the exact same thing, i'm covered in blood and not once did the 111 person ask if i was ok. they are only interested in what happened so they can assign blame later on. at the end of the day the police are a clean up crew. if someone life needs to be saved YOU have to go get in there and do it.	tweak'e (69)
884926	2010-05-15 04:45:00	they already do have such teams, called AOS. theres also another tactical team (not sure of the name) for major incidents. last resort is SAS. The army will never mobilize within NZ. The army will never mobilize within a country, it hurts morale too much to have to fire against your own citizens. Obviously relief efforts are different things. As is technical support, however they will never be given orders to "act" here. at the end of the day the police are a clean up crew. if someone life needs to be saved YOU have to go get in there and do it. And then be charged with assault, murder, manslaughter or something similar? Yeah right.	Cato (6936)
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