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Thread ID: 113033	2010-10-02 05:02:00	# of circuit breakers an Point-of-entry telephone cable	CCF (6760)	PC World Chat

Post ID	Timestamp	Content	User
1141126	2010-10-03 06:12:00	I posted a message earlier but it seemed to have disappeared. What I said was to check with an electrician with a current practicing licence before doing to much. There are new regulations and also you may have to fit Residual Current Devices (RCD's) which can limit the number of outlets on each circuit.	tut (12033)
1141127	2010-10-03 08:14:00	I keep forgetting youse guys use 240VAC, so my comments about sub-par wiring and breakers was all erased before I re-wrote this . Double the voltage and halve the amps! Still - I won't rope a job with less than 150% amps factored in, no matter what size the breakers - I always double the code requirements on runs over 30 feet . We usually use 15 Amp service, and occasionally an individual socket will call out for a 20 Amp dedicated service, and we jump up one gauge of wire for that . But you can never allow a higher Amp breaker on a smaller gauge wire even if the receptacle is the lower Amperage . It has to match all the back to the home run and each leg is distinctive! If you do decide to rope the walls (what we call the process of pulling cable) - you better make sure that you label each and every run with something that won't fall off or get smudged! A real electrician can meg-out the wires and ring the circuits - so having the rope in the walls is not forbidden - it's just not normally done by a homeowner . But if you think about it - many time the rope is run by a framer anyway and they just sky it out of the wall box conveniently to keep it out of the way of other trades if there's no electrician on the premises . After that - the electricians take over and tie it all in . I've gone on new construction where the plumbers have even pulled rope just to get it out of their way . In construction logical order - the framework is first, plumbing is second (and everyone stays outta the way!) - then the fireblocks and finally the wiring is pulled and run just before the wall is sheeted . One wallboard apprentice actually cut the excess wire off at each box to make his job easier . I had the walls all opened again to re-rope the whole building and I took my time to do it - and why not - the wallboard sub was paying for it all . I chased his apprentice from the job-lot with my hammer . So - I don't see where working in Upsidedown Land would make an electrician any angrier if the rope was in the walls by the time he gets there . IF the labels are all intact, that is . Joe, in your last but one paragraph, starting "SO" . The point really is the resposibility for the job . The Electrician who certifies the Instalation, who would issue a Compliance Certificate as required by Law here, regardless of who installed what,is the one who would carry the can (Responsibility) in the future . As it should be of course . But . . . . . Would you Guarantee a Vehicle Engine that some else had rebuilt? Guarantee repairs done to a vehicle by a novice? I doubt it . PJ	Poppa John (284)
1141128	2010-10-03 09:08:00	Hahaha Billy T you make it sound like Im a mad scientist, haha . But seriously, 10A per socket, 4 socket per room is pretty reasonable in this day and age . I mean I rather be safe with 10A sockets than with multi-socket panels from the warehouse or extension cords . Laugh away! It is not the number of sockets that is the problem, I have wired my house in 2 . 5mm TPS with 15 A breakers and have several outlets in every room, while my office has 18 outlets (6 doubles, 2 quadaruples and one single, total 21 individual sockets) but I don't run any outlets even close to 10 amps, the closest being my heater, which runs to 4 . 5 amps . However, I think you are/were confusing cable capacity with outlet loading, and I see you have amended your position on that and are now talking capacity not load, but that is not how you started out . You actually indicated that you thought a load current of 40 amps per room actual drain was not reasonable at all, that is 9 . 2 kW and is utterly ridiculous . Every outlet must be cabled and protected on the assumption that it might be called upon to carry its maximum rated load at some time, and every circuit must be protected by a breaker rated for the maximum load that the supply cable can deliver under all normal conditions . This does not incliude cable run through pink batts or other insulation either, I've seen cables melted together under those circumstances . If you have wall cavity insulation you may need to either uprate the cable or downrate the breaker . Before you think I'm just another know it all, perhaps I should tell you that for a number of years I had a hand in the preparation of Electrical Inspectors' examinations and other fairly deep involvement in the electrical industry . You are well out of your depth here, and if you really intend to do this work, do let your insurance company know, make sure it is fully checked and tested by an Electrical Inspector, and insist upon a Certificate of Compliance (which will be at your expense, but not so expensive that you should try and dodge it . Listen to Poppa John too, he knows what he's talking about . I will keep my eyes open for smoke signals on distant horizons . :D Cheers Billy 8-{)	Billy T (70)
1141129	2010-10-03 15:42:00	Joe, in your last but one paragraph, starting "SO". The point really is the resposibility for the job. The Electrician who certifies the Instalation, who would issue a Compliance Certificate as required by Law here, regardless of who installed what,is the one who would carry the can (Responsibility) in the future. As it should be of course. But..... Would you Guarantee a Vehicle Engine that some else had rebuilt? Guarantee repairs done to a vehicle by a novice? I doubt it. PJ We have stricter rules here but also the ability of the 'Homeowner-Contractor', who is just a non-licensed property owner, to assume any responsibilities as he sees fit or is willing to do. This is all in the vein of owner's financial assistance and to aid keeping the tab down for new/remodels for the sake of the homeowner. ALL homeowners are by law, considered as contractors for the purpose of buying below retail and having the ability to certify their own work - again for the purposes of keeping the costs down. They are issued an 'Owner-Contractor' license and identification card if they desire it. Under the owner-contractor rules, if he takes any responsibility by actually performing work on the job, he then assumes all liability and responsibility for those actions. This is on a state-by-state ruling, not federally mandated. Each state can set rules according to their domain, but never go against the Universal Building Codes, as set forth by the US Gummermint. This takes the licensed electrician off the hook for ultimate responsibility and all he has to do is observe what is available to him - that is: available to his scrutiny - then signed off as tested and certified - and that's the limit of his responsibility. This end product - or whatever inclusions in the actual work performed by the electrician - is what he certifies, but his liability has certainly been diminished and responsibilities in the eyes of the law. In essence, the electrician has taken an apprentice under his non remunerated employ and will thereby be watching his work under his own license, but this time the owner-apprentice assumes all liabilities and the results are his own.	SurferJoe46 (51)
1141130	2010-10-03 21:11:00	Hey there guys Much appreciated for all you comments and suggestions . I think the thread is slightly moving towards the idea that I am attempting to do the entire re-wiring myself . Please guys, I am only running the cables, nothing more :) Maybe I shouldnt had used the world "re-wiring", "roping" will probably be a better word like SurferJoe46 mentioned . As for the circuit breakers, it was really just to get an idea if having 30 or so CB was possible on typical household electric panels, which will help me determine how I can rope the cables . And I know I must use cables that are well above the load that it will be carrying, so I am not foolish enough to put a 20A circuit breaker on a 10A capable cable . The RCD, the circuit breaker, the electric panel, all those will be purchased & installed by an electrician, I have my own skills and electric wiring is not one of them . As well those are easy and quick contrast to roping the wires and cutting into the wall we have now . Hence will probably save me a good amount of labour cost and repair cost . To SurferJoe46, would had loved to see the face on that apprentice when you chased him with you hammer :clap	CCF (6760)
1141131	2010-10-03 21:35:00	Hey there guys Much appreciated for all you comments and suggestions. I think the thread is slightly moving towards the idea that I am attempting to do the entire re-wiring myself. Please guys, I am only running the cables, nothing more :) Maybe I shouldnt had used the world "re-wiring", "roping" will probably be a better word like SurferJoe46 mentioned. As for the circuit breakers, it was really just to get an idea if having 30 or so CB was possible on typical household electric panels, which will help me determine how I can rope the cables. And I know I must use cables that are well above the load that it will be carrying, so I am not foolish enough to put a 20A circuit breaker on a 10A capable cable. The RCD, the circuit breaker, the electric panel, all those will be purchased & installed by an electrician, I have my own skills and electric wiring is not one of them. As well those are easy and quick contrast to roping the wires and cutting into the wall we have now. Hence will probably save me a good amount of labour cost and repair cost. To SurferJoe46, would had loved to see the face on that apprentice when you chased him with you hammer :clap Hammer/me chasing idiot ---> At the point of me picking up a 32oz framing hammer, I never really saw his face again. All I saw was the bottom of his shoes, the back of his head and the South end of his butt as he disappeared North. As far as loading the J-box with breakers - you should NEVER exceed the total capacity of your outside drop or supply or the posted line-in Main Breaker limits with the total amount of Amps on all your circuit breakers. This is one time that the total must equal all the parts! If you have a 200 amp service, then the breakers cannot exceed that total amount. I know the rules of resistance and lost current must apply in Upsidedown Land too - so my one admonishment is to use the next higher wire size on runs of over 30 feet/10 Meters or so. We are also required to use THHN jacketed wire here in the US - it's called that for it's heat carrying capacity without melting the sheath or the individual strand covering.. TN and TNN grade wires are all but disappeared now as they aren't worth stocking if there is little call for them. If you run wires carrying high amperages near each other in a raceway f'rinstance, you can get parallel induction. This isn't much of a problem at low current loads - but it can happen with two motor circuits running close to each other for a few yards/meters. I always like to cross wires (say, in the attic where they are just stapled to frames, etc) at as near a right angle (90º) as possible to keep the heat to a minimum. Last thing: < I promise > don't make any junctions wire-to-wire in the walls without a d-box that is sky'd out and accessible for inspection and service later on! You cannot bury a wire junction - or the box it is in - and cover it with a wall. I think these things are fair-dinkum and international in scope - if not, they are just good safe practice since electricity is universal anyway.	SurferJoe46 (51)
1141132	2010-10-03 22:08:00	As for the circuit breakers, it was really just to get an idea if having 30 or so CB was possible on typical household electric panels, The RCD, the circuit breaker, the electric panel, all those will be purchased & installed by an electrician, If Billy's patience hasn't run out he may comment further but I believe that the latest RCD requirements allow up to 3 circuits per RCD so your 30 CBs could end up with 10 RCDs so it's rapidly running out of hand and not "typical" at all. By the time you've got your lighting etc you'll be close to a 60 way panel. Have you seen one of those in many houses?	PaulD (232)
1141133	2010-10-04 07:16:00	Thanks for the heads up and tips Joe! Paul, if that is the code then that would be a problem, not normal at all. Thanks for the heads up as well.	CCF (6760)
1141134	2010-10-04 13:31:00	Thanks for the heads up and tips Joe! Just part of my 'Hands Across The Border' and 'Electricians Without Borders' creed. Now - if you ever need help on a Linux Dual-Boot Program, let me know. I'm a whiz. First ve ztart mit totally erasingk zee hard drife........	SurferJoe46 (51)
1141135	2010-10-04 18:15:00	CCF have you read this yet www.energysafety.govt.nz This will answer all your questions.	wmoore (6009)
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